JIM RYUNS STORY!!!! 5:30 MILE TO 4:10 MILE

"So how great of a coach can he be?"

-you're starting to really piss me off, past guy. so you coach the world's first hs sub 4 guy, beat the current wr holder while in hs, eventually hold the wr for 1 mile and 1500m, the ar for 2 miles, and top that off with an olympic silver. where in the world is it in there that you question him to be a good coach? are you kidding me?!

Wow, the comments just keep coming my way. But that's fine with me, since this is a subject that I care about.

I've already said that the peak age for a miler is around 26 and that Ryun competed until he was 26. But for some reason, he peaked at 20. Have you seen clips of Ryun running 3:51.3 at the age of 19? He ran the first half with the pack in about 2:00 and then pulled away. It appeared that he could have run much faster on that day. The same thing is true of the 3:51.1. He made it look easy and had no one running with him. He appeared to have a lot in reserve.

Had he been that strong against Liquori in the "Dream Mile," I think the results would have been very different. Ryun would have won that race hands down.

He was better at the age of 20 than he was at 24 or 25. But you can't say that he was over the hill because of old age. There has to be another explanation. You know my explanation. What is yours?

In case you haven't figured it out; Living in the Past is a Bowerman/U of O fan. And Bowerman and the U of O guys, were 'annoyed' to say the least at this young Kansas kid coming along in the mid 60's and crashing their 'mile dominance' and knocking one of their guys out of the Olympics in 64,68 and 72. Thus, the backhanded compliments, the rips on Timmons, etc. Sour grapes.

You can read between the lines of Moore's new book, when Ryun is talked about and figure that much out.

I'm sorry that I'm making you angry. But all I'm doing is discussing Ryun's career. If I have made any factual errors, please correct me.

Actually, in another thread a few months ago I ripped Moore as a writer for being too touchy feely in that Laase Viren article for Sports Illustrated back in the 1970s. I've also pointed out that the last American runner from Oregon to make an Olympic final was Paul Geis, way the hell back in 1976. I've also pointed out that not many runners from Oregon have run well past the age of 25, at least under Dellinger. Ken Martin is an exception. This has nothing to do with Oregon or Bowerman. Someone else on this thread mentioned Bowerman. I think it was HRE.

[quote]Living in the past wrote:

Had he been that strong against Liquori in the "Dream Mile," I think the results would have been very different. Ryun would have won that race hands down.

oh yeah?

If you really knew Ryun's career like you claim you do, you would know that he had been fighting bad allergies, trying to train in Eugene, Oregon at that time and was just starting his outdoor season in April, where as Marty was well ahead of Ryun in racing fitness due to the college schedule. No comparison.

Timmons was a great coach. Look beyond Jim Ryun and the record is there. He had a string of very good steeple chasers in the mid-70's (Kent McDonald, Bill Lundberg, George Mason, John Roscoe) and his teams dominated the Big 8 and competed for national titles year in/year out. I got a chance to run for him before he kicked me off the team and he was tough. There is no doubt that he overtrained his runners. He's admitted that looking back he would do things differently but there can be no question that he was a successful coach. The mindset back when Jim was running was that career's on the track rarely lasted past age 25. Runners with long careers like Grelle and Snell were the acception not the rule. Timmons wasn't worried about what Jim could do at age 25...

I mentioned allergies earlier in this thread. That's why he moved from Eugene to California, where I think he still had allergies (wasn't it in San Goleta?)

But even after the move, he was often struggling to run 4:10, and this was in Europe during the peak of the track season. This happened a lot in 1971 and 1972. It never happened in 1966 or 1967, when he used to make 3:51 look easy.

Jayhawk. I agree with most of your thread. The only problem is that Ryun was faster at 19 than at 25. Lots of runners were overtrained in that era. Ryun's case was apparently extreme.

And I think Drew explained that pretty clearly. Jim lacked the competitive fire in 1972 that he had in 1967. He had changed a lot as a person. I don't think you can lay all of that at Timmons feet.

I can't beleive how many of you are trying to ignore the obvious inconsistency in Ryuns career, that he ran much better at 19 than he did in his mid-twenties, which runs against modern thoughts on peak age.

Maybe Ryun did peak at 19, but I hope the people who are purporting this are prepared to conceed that under that logic we have seen the best of one Alan Webb!

"Arthur Lydiard's book "Run To The Top" was available in 1962"

-just had to remind you that ryun whipped lydiard's best athlete's tail (and current wr holder) while in the white of wichita east high school. why would he change his training program?

Snell wasn't being coached by Lydiard in 1965, since they were on the outs. Maybe that's why Snell was running relatively poorly at the time.

Drew said that his father lost his will to compete after the mishap in the Olympics in 1972. I think Drew was talking about how that accounted for his so-so performances later that season. I certainly understand that.

I recall an interview between Howard Cosell and Ryun later in the 1972 games. (It may have been the day of the 1,500 final.) Cosell asked Ryun if he was going to try for another Olympics. Ryun said no, that his priority was his family and that he didn't want his children to grow up saying that "daddy is off somewhere running." So his priorities did change after the 1972 Olympic 1500 final. And for that you cannot blame Timmons.

Shesiter, Living in the past-he ran the third fastest time ever with his 3:52 in Toronto, his 1:45 800 that year was one of his fastest ever, he ran his 5k PR in 1972. At 25 he was not over the hill.

I've really got to find his 1972 journal. It is amazing how he would run a morning 5 miler in 25-27 minutes and then run an amazing workout later that afternoon/evening. When you read it, it's not some runner over the hill. Had he been in another era, I think the best was yet to come. I think Jack mentioned it earlier-his 1972 fitness, testing levels were on par with 1966-67. But like Living in the past just said, after the 1972 Olympics, priorities changed. That was just a fact of life in the 1960s 70s track scene-you did not have the long careers you have now because runners needed to have fulltime jobs to support families.

Living in the past wrote:

Let's face it, Timmons meant well. But he was in over his head. He also used your dad to further his career. After all, if he were really that devoted to your dad, he would have stayed at Wichita East and coached him during your senior year. But his career advancement took priority.

Your posts are so ridiculous that I have to step in here and correct your many mistakes.

First of all, Bob Timmons coached a number of national champions and record holders before Ryun, who wasn't even the best of them. Some of his swimmers were Olympic Champions and world record holders. Archie San Romani Jr. was national record holder in the mile long before Ryun came along, and helped pave the way for him.

I was there and saw Timmons working with Ryun and developing him every step of the way. I guarantee you that Ryun would have been NOTHING without the excellent and expert coaching of Bob Timmons.

Ryun had an excuse for everything and whined about anything, but Timmons kept him focused on the goal, provided a HUGE support network, and didn't tolerate any excuses. He was the master at developing talent and set high standards for every part of the young people's lives on his team.

Ryun's later failings came about because as he was maturing physically, his own insecurities and weakmindedness were gaining more control of his training. He started slacking more and more, skipping practices for dates, then dropping out of races. But it was mostly his weak mental attitude that not only kept him from progressing but eventually resulted in his downfall.

It wasn't long before quitting and starting a family took the priority, and his running became destined for failure, which is fine, but that was 100 percent Ryun's choice and nothing to do with the training of Timmons. To the contrary, Ryun could have chosen to keep running but, family or not, he no longer had the drive AND the network of support that was there at the beginning with Timmons, and his teammates at Wichita East.

You can hold Ryun accountable for his actions all that you wish.

But you would be hard pressed to find any high school coach who was better at developing talent than Bob Timmons of Wichita East. Personally I don't know of anyone who comes close.

drewr wrote:

Bob Timmons is a great guy, but keep in mind the man was a Marine drill sargeant.

That is totally not true.

Bob Timmons was a very soft spoken fellow. I saw him talking with Ryun many times, and he was never ever harsh with him, never told him or ordered him to do anything. It was all up to Jim, and Timmons made that very clear from the start.

Timmons was about the nicest guy you could meet.

I am quite happy with my life but if I had it to do over, I would do almost anything to be in that situation again and to run for him. I'm sure there are many others from his teams who feel the same way.

I was there and you weren't wrote:

drewr wrote:

Bob Timmons is a great guy, but keep in mind the man was a Marine drill sargeant.

That is totally not true.

I can't vouch for whether or not he was a drill sargeant, but Coach Timmons was most definitely a Marine.

You seem to be fairly opinionated on the matter and have insight to Ryun's life that his son does not. Care to shed your anonymity?

So Ryun would have been nothing without Timmons? There's no question that Ryun's talent surpassed Timmons's coaching ability by a mile (no pun intended). It's possible that Ryun could have had a worse coach in high school and consequently not run at all. So in that sense, he was saved by Timmons. But what if Ryun had a less rigid coach who knew how to help him with his head game? Ryun's greatest gift as an athlete was his physiological endowment, not his mental toughness. Another coach might have been savvy enough to work on the psychology.

As for Ryun being a whiner, though, it may be that his blood Ph was too acidic from lack of recovery. In other words, he could have been stale for physiological reasons, which would inevitably have affected his attitude. Maybe Timmons was too limited to see that the problem was physical as well as mental.

Are you saying that he was just being a pathetic whiner about his mononucleosis before the 1968 games? Was Ryun's weakness that he could not suck it up and train through it?

I've already mentioned Archie San Romani as being one of Timmons's great athletes. Timmons was a genius at getting short-term results. No one disagrees with that assessment. You can call short-term results at the expense of a long career "development" if you want.