Coach JS has made magnificent strides since last year when I saw him when he weighed just over 98- 100 kg (220lbs), and he's now down to 88 kg (195lbs),but no one weighing 88 kg (195) is going to run under 20 minutes for 5 km especially at age 66 so my basic message is that coach JS would have to get down to between 75 to 78 kg maximum to be able to achieve his goal and that means anywhere between 165 to 170 lb rather than 195lb where he's at now, at 6.2 (1.88cm).
You are right of course about weight. When I was at my prime as a national elite runner 14:20 5000m my weight was around 70 kg . But we will see what happens . Nowadays mostly I eat only two meals daily and I do some fasting now and then. I thought it would be hard to be without food many hours but amazed how easy it is to me. My "record" now 43 hours .... and fasting is great when doing it enough hours it triggers and starts the so called autophagy where the body " selfhealing" and replace bad cells / mitochondria with new fresh cells and important stemcells....
Today I ran easy lactate interval. 8 x 600m again and 3:17- 3:27 min , rest 90 sec- 3 min . Concentrated on keep breathing easy. 🧙♂️🌲
You said exactly the same thing last year. And the year before that.
It’s obviously just Internet BS but it does bring up an interesting topic about what it takes for a 65-year-old person to run a sub 20 5K.
IMO you had to have been sub 15min in your prime.
Age grading and aging are not linear. A lot of the top runners in their 60s (say sub 18:30 at 60, sub 20 at 65, were not running low or sub 14 back in the day.
It’s obviously just Internet BS but it does bring up an interesting topic about what it takes for a 65-year-old person to run a sub 20 5K.
IMO you had to have been sub 15min in your prime.
Age grading and aging are not linear. A lot of the top runners in their 60s (say sub 18:30 at 60, sub 20 at 65, were not running low or sub 14 back in the day.
Yes, some of them started late, and some didn’t push the envelope when young, but we’re talking about potential.
I'm only in my 50s but also had success beyond my expectations using NSM. But you won't get Jan to try it, he's far too stubborn, far too stuck in his ways and thinks a system called DANCAN which is just Daniels and Canova merged, is going to get a 66 year old to sub 20. I can't think of a much worse combination than those two philosophies for battered up old hobby joggers. We are so far away from what they were designed for, may as well be a different sport.
Sort of right.
He has only combined the words Daniels and Canova. He has very little comprehension of what the systems of Daniels and Canova comprise of or importantly how to implement them.
Otherwise you are correct, he is far too stubborn and self important to recognise that his way may not be the best.
You are right of course about weight. When I was at my prime as a national elite runner 14:20 5000m my weight was around 70 kg . But we will see what happens . Nowadays mostly I eat only two meals daily and I do some fasting now and then. I thought it would be hard to be without food many hours but amazed how easy it is to me. My "record" now 43 hours .... and fasting is great when doing it enough hours it triggers and starts the so called autophagy where the body " selfhealing" and replace bad cells / mitochondria with new fresh cells and important stemcells....
Today I ran easy lactate interval. 8 x 600m again and 3:17- 3:27 min , rest 90 sec- 3 min . Concentrated on keep breathing easy. 🧙♂️🌲
Please tell us more about stem cells Wizzy
Yes, there is of course alot of info about them and their functionality . You just ' Google it' and AI tells all you want to know about them ...main function I'm most interested in is reparation of the body. 🖐
I took about 15 years off racing between age 44 and 59, and have run a few 5k races since. I continued to run during that break, although at much lower volume tan previously. Over a year and a half of race attempts I gradually improved from 20:03 to 19:28, and hope (!) to improve a little more next month on a very flat course at 60 years and 7 months.
The main difference for me (just one data point) between training and racing at 59-60 versus 44 is the difficulty managing reasonable volume and workouts without risking injury. While I used to average about 65 mpw, sometimes getting above 100, i now usually run about 25 and might see 35 occasionally. With a couple of workouts a week, thats about my personal limit.
I’ve kept the workouts very simple, typically rotating between 400s at close to mile pace, 1000s close to 5k pace and longer stuff (maybe 2000s at close to 10k pace or longer strong “tempo”).
I have not personally (yet, anyway) managed to reach equivalent times from my younger racing days; the 19:28 was about 82% age-graded (2015 WMA tables) versus 84-87% across the range from 1500-HM at 42-44. It strikes me that regaining your youth, in age-graded terms, is very difficult, at least for me.
Best of luck in the attempt. I hope it goes better than Henry Rono’s public attempts on here a dozen or so years ago.
If I may give you advice you only have to change running 400s at 5 k pace and 1000s and up to 2000s at lactate threshold ( about half marathon pace) . Change that as an ' experiment' and you will most likely be positively surprised. Good luck! 🖐🧙♂️
Jan, you should seriously consider Norwegian Singles Method. You are much faster than me back in the day but I almost broke 20 recently at Battersea with a 20:11 and I'm well into my 60s. My best was a low 16 back in the 80s
Pound of pound I am better than I ever have been in all that time, given age grading as a rough guide. If you are interested I posted on the NSM Strava group and there's a few other old guys at least starving off the hands of time a bit!
The key is that consistency it brought me in older age, something you are lacking. My experience as an older runner (you are yet really to experience it, having not trained for so long) is that intensity will be your enemy. Even the hill sprints you are doing really aren't going to do much, you are going to need consistent, smart and measured volume, not intensity. That is the beauty of NSM for old guys like us.
As you probably know by now I don't agree with the NSM people . I have coached several aged 60+ guys and gals with my the Dancan system and they just magical improved fast all of them and sustained to keep on improving. Of course real magic don't exsist as we know it , but when I coach all runners improve from the startpoint and some of them amazingly fast. It of course sounds cooky , but it's true.🧙♂️
Jan, you should seriously consider Norwegian Singles Method. You are much faster than me back in the day but I almost broke 20 recently at Battersea with a 20:11 and I'm well into my 60s. My best was a low 16 back in the 80s
Pound of pound I am better than I ever have been in all that time, given age grading as a rough guide. If you are interested I posted on the NSM Strava group and there's a few other old guys at least starving off the hands of time a bit!
The key is that consistency it brought me in older age, something you are lacking. My experience as an older runner (you are yet really to experience it, having not trained for so long) is that intensity will be your enemy. Even the hill sprints you are doing really aren't going to do much, you are going to need consistent, smart and measured volume, not intensity. That is the beauty of NSM for old guys like us.
I'm only in my 50s but also had success beyond my expectations using NSM. But you won't get Jan to try it, he's far too stubborn, far too stuck in his ways and thinks a system called DANCAN which is just Daniels and Canova merged, is going to get a 66 year old to sub 20. I can't think of a much worse combination than those two philosophies for battered up old hobby joggers. We are so far away from what they were designed for, may as well be a different sport.
Hi buddy, you don't know how wrong you are in this comment. You don't seem to be one of my longtime stalkers so I will give you a serious answer.
My the Dancan method is a mix of 5 great coaches methods , Daniels, Canova, Lydiard, Gerschler and Stampfl and added my own specialities " the rubber band principle" and how I handle resttime at repetitions when the runner trains for shorter distances than 5 k and how I handle the inbuilt periodization. Continue....
I'm only in my 50s but also had success beyond my expectations using NSM. But you won't get Jan to try it, he's far too stubborn, far too stuck in his ways and thinks a system called DANCAN which is just Daniels and Canova merged, is going to get a 66 year old to sub 20. I can't think of a much worse combination than those two philosophies for battered up old hobby joggers. We are so far away from what they were designed for, may as well be a different sport.
Hi buddy, you don't know how wrong you are in this comment. You don't seem to be one of my longtime stalkers so I will give you a serious answer.
My the Dancan method is a mix of 5 great coaches methods , Daniels, Canova, Lydiard, Gerschler and Stampfl and added my own specialities " the rubber band principle" and how I handle resttime at repetitions when the runner trains for shorter distances than 5 k and how I handle the inbuilt periodization. Continue....
...... from Daniels I took the VDOT paces ( just recommodation paces with some good ' space' to vary ) , from Canova I took his philosophy to over time extend the distance at goalpace , from Lydiard his LSD easy steady distance ( what we today call zone 3 ) , from Gerschler his resttime when the runner rests back to 120-130 bpm pulse and from Stampfl his so called 'Staying power' ( which a little reminds of Canova's extending distance at goalpace) .
Together the ingrediens in this 'cooked brew' gave a tremendous powerful method, the Dancan System by Coach J.S 🇸🇪🧙♂️🇸🇪
I took about 15 years off racing between age 44 and 59, and have run a few 5k races since. I continued to run during that break, although at much lower volume tan previously. Over a year and a half of race attempts I gradually improved from 20:03 to 19:28, and hope (!) to improve a little more next month on a very flat course at 60 years and 7 months.
The main difference for me (just one data point) between training and racing at 59-60 versus 44 is the difficulty managing reasonable volume and workouts without risking injury. While I used to average about 65 mpw, sometimes getting above 100, i now usually run about 25 and might see 35 occasionally. With a couple of workouts a week, thats about my personal limit.
I’ve kept the workouts very simple, typically rotating between 400s at close to mile pace, 1000s close to 5k pace and longer stuff (maybe 2000s at close to 10k pace or longer strong “tempo”).
I have not personally (yet, anyway) managed to reach equivalent times from my younger racing days; the 19:28 was about 82% age-graded (2015 WMA tables) versus 84-87% across the range from 1500-HM at 42-44. It strikes me that regaining your youth, in age-graded terms, is very difficult, at least for me.
Best of luck in the attempt. I hope it goes better than Henry Rono’s public attempts on here a dozen or so years ago.
If I may give you advice you only have to change running 400s at 5 k pace and 1000s and up to 2000s at lactate threshold ( about half marathon pace) . Change that as an ' experiment' and you will most likely be positively surprised. Good luck! 🖐🧙♂️
Jan, you should seriously consider Norwegian Singles Method. You are much faster than me back in the day but I almost broke 20 recently at Battersea with a 20:11 and I'm well into my 60s. My best was a low 16 back in the 80s
Pound of pound I am better than I ever have been in all that time, given age grading as a rough guide. If you are interested I posted on the NSM Strava group and there's a few other old guys at least starving off the hands of time a bit!
The key is that consistency it brought me in older age, something you are lacking. My experience as an older runner (you are yet really to experience it, having not trained for so long) is that intensity will be your enemy. Even the hill sprints you are doing really aren't going to do much, you are going to need consistent, smart and measured volume, not intensity. That is the beauty of NSM for old guys like us.
As you probably know by now I don't agree with the NSM people . I have coached several aged 60+ guys and gals with my the Dancan system and they just magical improved fast all of them and sustained to keep on improving. Of course real magic don't exsist as we know it , but when I coach all runners improve from the startpoint and some of them amazingly fast. It of course sounds cooky , but it's true.🧙♂️
Who are those several 60+ guys and gals? There is zero evidence of this in your social media. Every other online coach has reviews, pictures, etc. You have nothing to back your claims.
Hi buddy, you don't know how wrong you are in this comment. You don't seem to be one of my longtime stalkers so I will give you a serious answer.
My the Dancan method is a mix of 5 great coaches methods , Daniels, Canova, Lydiard, Gerschler and Stampfl and added my own specialities " the rubber band principle" and how I handle resttime at repetitions when the runner trains for shorter distances than 5 k and how I handle the inbuilt periodization. Continue....
...... from Daniels I took the VDOT paces ( just recommodation paces with some good ' space' to vary ) , from Canova I took his philosophy to over time extend the distance at goalpace , from Lydiard his LSD easy steady distance ( what we today call zone 3 ) , from Gerschler his resttime when the runner rests back to 120-130 bpm pulse and from Stampfl his so called 'Staying power' ( which a little reminds of Canova's extending distance at goalpace) .
Together the ingrediens in this 'cooked brew' gave a tremendous powerful method, the Dancan System by Coach J.S 🇸🇪🧙♂️🇸🇪
Why do all your runners stagnate quickly and then get slower?
Jan, you should seriously consider Norwegian Singles Method. You are much faster than me back in the day but I almost broke 20 recently at Battersea with a 20:11 and I'm well into my 60s. My best was a low 16 back in the 80s
Pound of pound I am better than I ever have been in all that time, given age grading as a rough guide. If you are interested I posted on the NSM Strava group and there's a few other old guys at least starving off the hands of time a bit!
The key is that consistency it brought me in older age, something you are lacking. My experience as an older runner (you are yet really to experience it, having not trained for so long) is that intensity will be your enemy. Even the hill sprints you are doing really aren't going to do much, you are going to need consistent, smart and measured volume, not intensity. That is the beauty of NSM for old guys like us.
As you probably know by now I don't agree with the NSM people . I have coached several aged 60+ guys and gals with my the Dancan system and they just magical improved fast all of them and sustained to keep on improving. Of course real magic don't exsist as we know it , but when I coach all runners improve from the startpoint and some of them amazingly fast. It of course sounds cooky , but it's true.🧙♂️
Hundreds of athletes have had verifiable success with NSM. Where are the success stories, not told by you, with dancan?
If I may give you advice you only have to change running 400s at 5 k pace and 1000s and up to 2000s at lactate threshold ( about half marathon pace) . Change that as an ' experiment' and you will most likely be positively surprised. Good luck! 🖐🧙♂️
I’ve got sessions like that available to me, but usually would include them later in a serious training block with very specific total volume and rest intervals. For example, 10-12 x 400 at 5k pace with 100 m jog rest, or 8-10 x 1000 at ~ LT with 400 m jog rest, as examples. I’ve been keeping it very simple at my age and temperament, with 6-8 x 400 at ~ mile pace with 200 m jog, 4-5 x 1000 at ~ 5k pace with 200 m jog, as examples. Plus longer stuff at closer to LT (if that’s a term you prefer; I don’t tend to use it myself), which is anything from 1 to 3 miles steady / strong without focussing on pace, just effort.
If I may give you advice you only have to change running 400s at 5 k pace and 1000s and up to 2000s at lactate threshold ( about half marathon pace) . Change that as an ' experiment' and you will most likely be positively surprised. Good luck! 🖐🧙♂️
I’ve got sessions like that available to me, but usually would include them later in a serious training block with very specific total volume and rest intervals. For example, 10-12 x 400 at 5k pace with 100 m jog rest, or 8-10 x 1000 at ~ LT with 400 m jog rest, as examples. I’ve been keeping it very simple at my age and temperament, with 6-8 x 400 at ~ mile pace with 200 m jog, 4-5 x 1000 at ~ 5k pace with 200 m jog, as examples. Plus longer stuff at closer to LT (if that’s a term you prefer; I don’t tend to use it myself), which is anything from 1 to 3 miles steady / strong without focussing on pace, just effort.
To me it looks like you do it " the wrong way" 🤔. Just try to help you out😃. If doing 400s at mile pace and 1000s at 5 k pace ( which you don't need to do if racing at 5 k and up) they will give you a better respond if used in your more serious training block as a " sharpening phase". Good luck with your training! 🧙♂️🖐
I'm only in my 50s but also had success beyond my expectations using NSM. But you won't get Jan to try it, he's far too stubborn, far too stuck in his ways and thinks a system called DANCAN which is just Daniels and Canova merged, is going to get a 66 year old to sub 20. I can't think of a much worse combination than those two philosophies for battered up old hobby joggers. We are so far away from what they were designed for, may as well be a different sport.
Sort of right.
He has only combined the words Daniels and Canova. He has very little comprehension of what the systems of Daniels and Canova comprise of or importantly how to implement them.
Otherwise you are correct, he is far too stubborn and self important to recognise that his way may not be the best.
One of the very best comments on this thread from people 'outside' dancan.
Come on Jan and put your “wallet” where your “mouth” is.
1. set a date by when you will complete your goal.
2. describe what your mesocycles will be
3. Documents your microcycle at the end of each week and how you are feeling, you can omit paces and recovery because that’s your magic, but show the types of sessions from your training diary
You will either succeed and show your success and get more clients or it crashes and burns and show the method needs some refinement for a master athlete.
either way it’s good for you to finally do this as you have said you a lot about your method on the forum over the last 10 years
Still waiting Jan, no answer yet despite you saying you have on the NSM thread.
vdot, special period, and arbitrary recovery HR is not a training methodology that for exactly just saying sub threshold sessions…