DIII Runner Not Going to Nationals Because of Clerical Mistake by His Coach

10,000m wrote:

I would strongly urge the young men who are running in the 10,000m to not start the race unless Nick End is allowed to start. I promise they will not hold the meet up because it will such a black eye.

and i promise you they would HAPPILY cancel the mens 10k rather than give in to such strong-arm tactics.

I sent Kristen an e-mail. It is absolutely ridiculous that you aren't going to be able to run! The NCAA should have been shit canned a long time ago because it is clearly out of touch with the athletes it claims to represent. They just spout empty rhetoric that looks good on brochures. They should be ashamed of themselves, but they won't be because of their legalistic bent. They could give an damn about their athletes, their primary concern involves profits.

It's even more unfortunate that some fellow runners are claiming that "rules are rules." If everyone shared that belief, then nothing would ever get changed now would it? Rules are made by HUMANS, they aren't unerring and infallible. I hope all runners out there send an e-mail or make a call and let the NCAA know how this decision is just wrong.

Jeremy

Jose Miranda wrote:

This happened to some long and triple jumpers from where I went to school (Elizabethtown College) a couple of years ago because a coach after the meet complained about the sand not being level with the front of the pit in the long and triple jump.

Jose Miranda stick to what you know. There were many guys removed from the national lists for jumping into very illegal pits that year. and it was not the NCAAs fault. it was the fault of each and every coach/administrator who hosted a meet with an illegal pit. Your guys were not victims of the NCAA, they were the victims of the fools that hosted meets with half-full pits.

I disagree about raceberryjam being a poorly designed site. I entered my athletes this weekend and had not trouble at all. There are several screens which you go through, filling out information and checking choices.

I had two athletes, neither got in because of their position on the list. But there were at least two screens that clearly displayed the events entered in, I don't have a degree in computer science, but I don't understand how anyone could mistake the entry process as hard or confusing, if anything at all it is designed to prevent such issues. (this is the 6th or 7th year they've used raceberryjam, and this is the first I've heard of a problem like this, thats a pretty good record if you ask me)

Also, someone said do your entries early. That wouldn't help much, as the declaration period is only about 8 hours long or so.

Sadly though, Nick is the one that pays the price for it all. I'm sorry Nick, you deserved better.

I don't doubt that it's relatively simpler, however I can definitely see room for much improvement in terms of hierarchy and visual layout.

Didn't mean to step on anyone's toes, per se. It's just my opinion that other sources (DirectAthletics, for one) are much more attractive and intuitive to use.

Here is a thought...If the NCAA sucks so much why do you want so badly to run in their meet? you couldnt have cared about running there that much if you only were going to declare in the 10 anyway because the 5 is saturday. why not go for both even knowing the chances of 5 are slim and none. i'm pretty sure when i was in school my coach declared guy's with pretty low provo's just because for this reason.

ok, he should get in, it almost seems like the right person hasent even been contacted in this case because it is really a no-brainer, dude qualified, coach f-ed up, found f-up, put kid back in...have you contacted the "games committee?"

Someone once asked the infamous bank robber why he robbed banks. Sutton quipped, "because that's where the money is." Why would someone want to run in the NCAA championships? Because that's where the competition is. Like the NCAA or not, there is no better race for a 30:38 guy than the NCAA Division 3 track championships!

To those of you who are sending angry e-mails and calling officials' cell phones, here is a bit of advice: Stop it. You aren't helping.

I've worked with and against bureaucrats in many contexts. The more people aggressively complain, the more intransigent the bureaucrats become. A bunch of insulting e-mails and phone calls from letsrun readers will make it *less* likely that Nick gets a chance to run. If the bureaucracy perceives this to be a "battle," then their position will become more fixed than ever.

The approach Nick and his coach have taken is the smart one: polite but persistent requests. In the event that such an approach has failed (as it appears to have in this case), then there is probably only one other option to explore: find a person, group, or corporation that provides significant financial support to the organization in question. Money talks. If you can find someone with financial influence to champion your cause, you have a shot. Such a tactic is very unlikely to succeed, especially given the time constraints here--but at least it has a chance of working. I can guarantee that the phone calls and e-mails are at best having no effect; at worst, they are hurting Nick's cause.

jakestout wrote:

The NCAA is not God and this ruling is complete BS.

"You're not GOD! This isn't even your COUNTRY!"

Well, it is their country. But national origin doesn't even factor into this. It's about fairness.

End, I hope you get to run the NCAA Championships... if not, know that you're worthy of the honor, even if the NCAA is full of shit.

The DIII LJ/TJ situation of a few years ago did involve some very poor decision making by the NCAA. They determined that meet directors, around the country, be called if they hosted meets after a certain date. They simply identified themselves and asked a question: Were your TJ/LJ pits legal on such and such a date. In many cases these officials were caught off-gaurd by the line of questioning. Who got in to the meet and who didn't was determined by that brief conversation. Here is an example:The meet director a DIII said something like "The landing area was level with the take-off board at the start of the meet as I recall" The meet director at a DI school responded to the questioning with (and this is pretty accurate because I heard the person telling the story) "Who the f*** are you and yes my landing area was legal"Athletes from the DIII meet did not participate, athletes from the DI meet did. The NCAA made a huge mistake and the entire process was a joke.

just another d3 coach2 wrote:

Jose Miranda stick to what you know. There were many guys removed from the national lists for jumping into very illegal pits that year. and it was not the NCAAs fault. it was the fault of each and every coach/administrator who hosted a meet with an illegal pit. Your guys were not victims of the NCAA, they were the victims of the fools that hosted meets with half-full pits.[/quote]

Trollie McSockpuppet wrote:

I've worked with and against bureaucrats in many contexts. The more people aggressively complain, the more intransigent the bureaucrats become. A bunch of insulting e-mails and phone calls from letsrun readers will make it *less* likely that Nick gets a chance to run.

Who said anything about insulting emails and phone calls?

Bureaucrats respond to problems that interupt their routine. And they will do what they need to do to keep their status quo. Multiple polite but firm emails and phone calls raising this issue is exactly what interupts their routine and their complacency of how they are handling the championships and the athletes participating in it.

Nick

Actually, what the NCAA needs is to be sued. Don't misunderstand me, I despise all the needless litigation that goes on, but this is the type of stuff that the NCAA has gotten away with for years (decades) because people do not have the balls to stand up to them. Putting aside the issue of whether you want to do this badly enough, and the potential cost involved, lawyers run into court on a day's notice all the time in the event of an emergency in order to seek a court order preventing someone from doing something (such as selling something that violates a trademark) or compelling someone to do something. Its called an injunction, and, to put it very simply, it is granted after a court weighs the equities involved, which in this case favor you. The NCAA's argument that "rules are rules" is BS. As I said earlier, there are exceptions to most rules and one should be made here. Again, I am not encouraging you to sue them, but it would be just the thing the NCAA needs. Regardless, don't give up yet (you didn't give up when you ran 30:38, did you?). Call these people constantly, email them constntly. be a major pain. Good luck.

NCAA CHAMP wrote:

Here is a thought...If the NCAA sucks so much why do you want so badly to run in their meet? You couldnt have cared about running there that much if you only were going to declare in the 10 anyway because the 5 is saturday. why not go for both even knowing the chances of 5 are slim and none.

Why does he want to run in the meet if the NCAA sucks? Maybe it's because people run at national meets to compete with worthy athletes...not to "honor" petty organizations.

And yeah, he obviously doesn't care that much about running there--given the content of his e-mail, etc. "If you don't sign up for events you know you have no chance at getting in, you obviously don't care about the other ones." Nice logic, idiot.

Yeah, nobody said the had to be insulting. But, as every distance runner knows...persistence pays off. According to Gandhi, it also works with bureaucrats.

Hoovis

Yeah, I liked the idea of a boycott a lot until I realized that. It's a shame...but you have to wonder, wouldn't them cancelling the 10k just make a much larger amount of people angry? In which case they'd *maybe* have to do something about it, I guess...

I know it's not going to do anything, but if he doesn't run tomorrow I'm wearing a t-shirt at the meet on Saturday (the only day I'll be there) dedicated to Nick/condemning the NCAA. Any other people that will be at the meet: feel free to join in.

just another d3 coach2 wrote:

10,000m wrote:

I would strongly urge the young men who are running in the 10,000m to not start the race unless Nick End is allowed to start. I promise they will not hold the meet up because it will such a black eye.

and i promise you they would HAPPILY cancel the mens 10k rather than give in to such strong-arm tactics.

I meant to quote that in the previous post.

I meant to quote that in the previous post.

shit, I meant to post that as mideast supporter, not plug.

I feel bad for Nick, but I was wondering why he didn't declare in both the 5k and 10k if he was on the list for both? If he gets in the 10k, there's a chance he would get in the 5k as well as the NCAA counts each participant once, no matter how many events he or she is entered in. When I ran in college, my coach would declare me even if I was last on the national list. You never know who will scatch, who's injured, etc. Especially with the 5k and 10k being on different days, why not enter both?

I don't see how suing the NCAA will help anything. They are under no obligation to let Nick into the meet. Their defense will always be that the CMU coach botched the entry procedure, which he did. The coach is a great guy, but he screwed up...it happens. Nick, his coach, and the AD have already petitined the NCAA to no avail. Anonymous posters on a message board calling random officials will not help the situation. The mature thing to do at this point is admit the coach made a mistake and move on. Go to a Boston High Performance meet over the summer or find a competitive road race and CRANK.

And the NCAA, which a huge unwieldy organization, does not need to be "shit canned" as someone said (by the way, don't quote Without Limits in your argument). Streamlined, yes, but taken away, no.

I know I have spelling errors. Sorry.