No.
When you are born in the mountains and 3000-4000 m over sea level you get an advantage. That advantage are now getting equal. Kejelcha for instant is born in Shewa.
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His thesis is taht everyone is doping. Atleast every athlete that gets a record.
He is still living in a cage in the 80s or 90s. That dude is so deluded its incredible00 -
Going back to the OP list and adding a few from the thread:
Clues he might be clean:
1. Consistent progress since 12yo - no spike in performance. If doping, he's been at it since 12 as he has always been the best. (This the most compelling to me since I would expect doping to start after a plateau or dip, and I can't imagine any Dad, even Gjert, juicing their 12yo).
2. Frequent year-round competition exposing himself to lots of testing.
3. Norway anti-doping has a good reputation for thoroughness.
4. Cost benefit analysis in Norway doesn't add up for doping (not a way out of poverty there, but is a way to be vilified/exiled).
5. Genetically highly talented family.
6. Openness about their training to the extent of bringing TV cameras into their home for a span of years (why take the risk?)
7. Athletes worldwide have openly credited a move towards ingebrigtsen/bakken training elements for their breakthroughs (e.g. Kessler, Kincaid, Fisher.. even Hocker did it for strength building). He has been doing this longer than anyone.
8. Enemies in the know: due to the sad story with Gjert, there are ex-teammates and their extended friend circles that just don't like him and his brothers. If doping were at play, rumors would be flying in Norwegian training circles and they aren't.
Clues he might not be clean:
1. He's faster than other suspected dopers (no proof of doping though).
2. He's white and beating east africans.
121 -
dont discount this wrote:
How can Jakob be better than Komen?
Aside from the better shoes, wave light, threshold training, and more years of elite training, you're forgetting belief.
The mile record was 4:01 for 10 years before Bannister. Then Bannister broke 4 in 1954, and 10 runners in all broke 4 in 1954-1956.
The 5,000 world record progressed by 5 seconds from Moorcraft's 13:00 in 1982 to Kiptanui's 12:55 in June 1995. 13 years to improve 5 seconds. Then Geb smashed the WR by 11 seconds in one race in August 1995, and suddenly 8 different athletes were under Kiptanui's WR in 1995-1997.
When I see mass breakthroughs like that it just proves to me that there is a psychological component. The bar gets higher over time, always higher, and people rise to meet the new challenge.
Mass breakthroughs might be psychological to you but to WADA they are an indicator of collective doping.
04 -
hobby trail jogger wrote:
Armstronglivs wrote:
He has just smashed one of the longest standing records in the sport, a record that was likely set by an athlete on EPO, for which there was then no effective test. That virtually ends the speculation about Ingebrigtsen doping there.
So your thesis is that if someone performs better than a doped athlete he must be doping because doping is so much effective, and you know it is effective because every performing athlete dopes? Brilliant.
That isn't my thesis, it is your fatuous assumption based on your contrived circular argument.
This post was edited 46 seconds after it was posted.14 -
dont discount this wrote:
How can Jakob be better than Komen?
Aside from the better shoes, wave light, threshold training, and more years of elite training, you're forgetting belief.
The mile record was 4:01 for 10 years before Bannister. Then Bannister broke 4 in 1954, and 10 runners in all broke 4 in 1954-1956.
The 5,000 world record progressed by 5 seconds from Moorcraft's 13:00 in 1982 to Kiptanui's 12:55 in June 1995. 13 years to improve 5 seconds. Then Geb smashed the WR by 11 seconds in one race in August 1995, and suddenly 8 different athletes were under Kiptanui's WR in 1995-1997.
When I see mass breakthroughs like that it just proves to me that there is a psychological component. The bar gets higher over time, always higher, and people rise to meet the new challenge.
Exactly! Do not underestimate the psychological component, it's superior to the physiological. There is no upper limit. We can always be a hundreds of a second faster. It never stops.
And some athletes are unique in the way the manage to belive they are or will be faster then their opponents / the clock. If not, they have the mindset to do the work to make them able to.
Some athletes are insane, like Sifan Hassan :-)
Jakob is known to sit in call room thinking "no one in this room is better than me".
Of course he looses sometimes, but often rationalized with tactical misjudgments or illness/injury . And the loss just stokes the fire even more. And of course other athletes do think the same, but it's a big difference to think you are and to have a core belief that you are. The insecurity have a tendency to pop up when things matters the most.
A true winning mindset is probably close to a personality disorder in the normal world.. . :-D
30 -
The rural runner wrote:
dont discount this wrote:
How can Jakob be better than Komen?
Aside from the better shoes, wave light, threshold training, and more years of elite training, you're forgetting belief.
The mile record was 4:01 for 10 years before Bannister. Then Bannister broke 4 in 1954, and 10 runners in all broke 4 in 1954-1956.
The 5,000 world record progressed by 5 seconds from Moorcraft's 13:00 in 1982 to Kiptanui's 12:55 in June 1995. 13 years to improve 5 seconds. Then Geb smashed the WR by 11 seconds in one race in August 1995, and suddenly 8 different athletes were under Kiptanui's WR in 1995-1997.
When I see mass breakthroughs like that it just proves to me that there is a psychological component. The bar gets higher over time, always higher, and people rise to meet the new challenge.
Exactly! Do not underestimate the psychological component, it's superior to the physiological. There is no upper limit. We can always be a hundreds of a second faster. It never stops.
And some athletes are unique in the way the manage to belive they are or will be faster then their opponents / the clock. If not, they have the mindset to do the work to make them able to.
Some athletes are insane, like Sifan Hassan :-)
Jakob is known to sit in call room thinking "no one in this room is better than me".
Of course he looses sometimes, but often rationalized with tactical misjudgments or illness/injury . And the loss just stokes the fire even more. And of course other athletes do think the same, but it's a big difference to think you are and to have a core belief that you are. The insecurity have a tendency to pop up when things matters the most.
A true winning mindset is probably close to a personality disorder in the normal world.. . :-D
Do you think that a hyper-ambitious athlete with that kind of "personality disorder" wouldn't entertain doping to fulfil their obsessive goals? I would absolutely put money on it.
22 -
To recap wrote:
Going back to the OP list and adding a few from the thread:
Clues he might be clean:
1. Consistent progress since 12yo - no spike in performance. If doping, he's been at it since 12 as he has always been the best. (This the most compelling to me since I would expect doping to start after a plateau or dip, and I can't imagine any Dad, even Gjert, juicing their 12yo).
2. Frequent year-round competition exposing himself to lots of testing.
3. Norway anti-doping has a good reputation for thoroughness.
4. Cost benefit analysis in Norway doesn't add up for doping (not a way out of poverty there, but is a way to be vilified/exiled).
5. Genetically highly talented family.
6. Openness about their training to the extent of bringing TV cameras into their home for a span of years (why take the risk?)
7. Athletes worldwide have openly credited a move towards ingebrigtsen/bakken training elements for their breakthroughs (e.g. Kessler, Kincaid, Fisher.. even Hocker did it for strength building). He has been doing this longer than anyone.
8. Enemies in the know: due to the sad story with Gjert, there are ex-teammates and their extended friend circles that just don't like him and his brothers. If doping were at play, rumors would be flying in Norwegian training circles and they aren't.
Clues he might not be clean:
1. He's faster than other suspected dopers (no proof of doping though).
2. He's white and beating east africans.
The main clue he isn't clean is that he has demolished a record set by one of the most talented athletes in history who was almost certainly on EPO. You could assume the same for any female runner that takes a couple of seconds off Kratochvilova's 800 mark.
16 -
Watch this video of him running 8:25 for 3000m at 14 yrs of age and read the comments. If Jacob is doped now, he was doped 10 years ago.
20 -
Armstronglivs wrote:
The rural runner wrote:
Exactly! Do not underestimate the psychological component, it's superior to the physiological. There is no upper limit. We can always be a hundreds of a second faster. It never stops.
And some athletes are unique in the way the manage to belive they are or will be faster then their opponents / the clock. If not, they have the mindset to do the work to make them able to.
Some athletes are insane, like Sifan Hassan :-)
Jakob is known to sit in call room thinking "no one in this room is better than me".
Of course he looses sometimes, but often rationalized with tactical misjudgments or illness/injury . And the loss just stokes the fire even more. And of course other athletes do think the same, but it's a big difference to think you are and to have a core belief that you are. The insecurity have a tendency to pop up when things matters the most.
A true winning mindset is probably close to a personality disorder in the normal world.. . :-D
Do you think that a hyper-ambitious athlete with that kind of "personality disorder" wouldn't entertain doping to fulfil their obsessive goals? I would absolutely put money on it.
History has surely shown us that. But also shown the opposite (as far as "not caught" equals "clean", which will always remain uncertain, which some of us gladly loves to debate... ;-)
Jakob is clean. Just coffein, bicarbonate and vitamin well.
10 -
Focus on his coach. Is this the only athlete he has coached? Does his coach coach other people now?
00 -
Let him take a lie detector test.
Lie detectors nowadays are very reliable instruments.
00 -
To recap wrote:
Clues he might not be clean:
1. He's faster than other suspected dopers (no proof of doping though).
2. He's white and beating east africans.
Quite a biased list. Several of the clues that he might be clean are quite meaningless, such as Norway being rich and him getting tested year-round (which is true for lots of countries including the US). In fact, we learned that Norway does not test that much in comparison to others - Thoughtleader had a thread about that.
More clues he might not be clean:
3. Small tight training group, thus not many insiders.
4. Brother and teammate on the likely doping list.
5. Faster than all current dopers (1500 - 3000) and all past dopers ever (3000, by at least 1 s/km), even including the most super talented dopers.
6. Dirty sport full of dopers.
51 -
Aaleby wrote:
* He was already a physical phenomenon at 12 years old (thoroughly tested by professors at the Norwegian School of Sport Sciences).
* He was as dominant at 12-14 years old as he is today.
* He competes as often as possible (why expose yourself to that risk if you're using drugs?).
* He comes from one of the world's richest countries, which reduces the incentive to buy advantages.
* Anti-Doping Norway is known for taking its role very seriously. They even purchased mobile homes during COVID to ensure top athletes continued to be tested, unlike many other countries where the level of testing was at an absolute minimum.
* One could argue that doping is a less attractive shortcut if you come from a highly transparent country where you are guaranteed prosperity and would become a persona non grata if exposed as a simple cheat.
Kid had earrings as a toddler.
21 -
know thy history wrote:
To recap wrote:
Clues he might not be clean:
1. He's faster than other suspected dopers (no proof of doping though).
2. He's white and beating east africans.
Quite a biased list. Several of the clues that he might be clean are quite meaningless, such as Norway being rich and him getting tested year-round (which is true for lots of countries including the US). In fact, we learned that Norway does not test that much in comparison to others - Thoughtleader had a thread about that.
More clues he might not be clean:
3. Small tight training group, thus not many insiders.
4. Brother and teammate on the likely doping list.
5. Faster than all current dopers (1500 - 3000) and all past dopers ever (3000, by at least 1 s/km), even including the most super talented dopers.
6. Dirty sport full of dopers.
Cheers -
3 small training group is true, but not as tight as it might seem since the split - plenty of salty ex-training partners about the place. Still it's worth adding to the list.
4 is a good one, forgot about that fancybears leak with him and Farah mentioned. I never saw anything concrete there - a rumor of suspicion based on blood, but denied and not verified. Worth having on the list.
5 already listed (twice arguably)
6 not relevant (or in my 2cs accurate - I would expect if X% of sub 13:10 guys are doping that Y% of 13:40-14:10 guys are. I know dozens of guys in that range and none are doping. Same over the last 3 decades. They are copying everything else the pros do - shoes, bicarb, beta-alinine, beetroot, creatine, coffee, etc so why not doping).
I don't think Norwegians being rich precludes them from doping, but as someone else in the thread it does change the cost benefit equation and I think that's valid.
21 -
If Jakob is not all clean he is operating in some grey area created and facilitated by Nike - nothing illegal but maybe the playing field is not completely level.
00 -
I haven't read all 5 pages, but if you have to make a list, then I wonder if you might be a bit suspicious yourself.
01 -
know thy history wrote:
To recap wrote:
Clues he might not be clean:
1. He's faster than other suspected dopers (no proof of doping though).
2. He's white and beating east africans.
Quite a biased list. Several of the clues that he might be clean are quite meaningless, such as Norway being rich and him getting tested year-round (which is true for lots of countries including the US). In fact, we learned that Norway does not test that much in comparison to others - Thoughtleader had a thread about that.
Antidoping Norway has about 100 athletes in their testing pool and did around 2500 tests of Norwegian athletes last year. 25% of these from the testing pool.
I think you’ll find that compared to USADA or other NANDOs ADNO tests quite a lot.
Biological passports also increase the chances of catching dopers.
But still some dopers are never caught and others go under the radar for years before they are caught.
I guess we’ll never know for sure unless we see a positive test, but as probably one of the most tested distance runners I don’t think he’s stupid enough to take the risk.
20 -
justanothercuriousdude wrote:
Arm Lancestrong wrote:
Norway has the premiere blood-doping programs, beginning with their xc skiers.
Source..?
02 -
Aaleby wrote:
* He was already a physical phenomenon at 12 years old (thoroughly tested by professors at the Norwegian School of Sport Sciences).
* He was as dominant at 12-14 years old as he is today.
* He competes as often as possible (why expose yourself to that risk if you're using drugs?).
* He comes from one of the world's richest countries, which reduces the incentive to buy advantages.
* Anti-Doping Norway is known for taking its role very seriously. They even purchased mobile homes during COVID to ensure top athletes continued to be tested, unlike many other countries where the level of testing was at an absolute minimum.
* One could argue that doping is a less attractive shortcut if you come from a highly transparent country where you are guaranteed prosperity and would become a persona non grata if exposed as a simple cheat.
😆 🤣 😂
None of the above are reasons he isn't doping
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