Yes. I have stated this several times. Coaches don't cut because they think the slow kids bring them down. They cut due to safety and budget. Budget merely means busses and uniforms and coaches. It seems to anger people that coaches want a safe environment. Even sending 25 kids of varying ability out around town, has some risk involved. Sending 50 who are running 5 miles easy from 33 minutes to 60 minutes is completely unmanageable.
Is it normal to have tryouts for a high school cross country team? My son likes running and wants to join the cross country team when he gets to high school, but on our email list we have been told that there is a time cutoff for the kids to make before they can make the team?
Is this normal? I always thought that cross country would have a lot of participants as freshmen, jv and varsity?
Most programs do not have the luxury of tryouts and cuts, because they have so few participants. Those with larger teams, like me, do not have cuts or tryouts, because we know the runners will "cut" themselves. They either have the right mindset (and stay and work hard), or they do not, and they drop out after a few days. I typically do not have cuts, but I DO have a standard to make the travel team. If a runner cannot make the standard, they stay at home until their training gets them to where they can make it. It works for me, but I understand when a coach does something differently.
20 minutes for three miles should be attainable by most healthy, semi athletic teenage boys.
It's like trying out for the baseball team and you can't throw the ball across the diamond.
I agree with this to some degree. Yes, a runner who puts in time in the summer can make that time, but one with no training (freshmen). However, you can't develop runners if you run them off at the first practice. When I was a freshman, my times were horrid. But I was willing to work, and got better. Sounds like the coach just wants only fast kids, or he wants to ensure a good summer of training, as you suggest.
re the people making expense excuses, XC often share unis with track which usually has several more people. the spikes can double as track spikes. the XC coach is usually doubling as TF coach or something else. i think entry fees are usually by team. where is this added expense?
now there is also "participation," but IMO few schools have dozens of kids playing a la southlake carroll. i went to an above average program with some state records and championships, and you could fit both sexes, varsity and subvarsity, on a single school bus. our subvarsity teams were usually only part-full and could stand more competitors. it also strikes me as fake inasmuch as a school might carry 36 kids or more on varsity and JV soccer, dozens on football, perhaps multiple basketball teams with a dozen on each level. and a football team needs pads, helmets, cleats, multiple coaches with specific responsibilities, etc. i don't buy for a second a bunch of singlets and shorts, and a single coach saying run around that field and i will stopwatch you, are eating the school out of athletic house and home. bull. bull. bull.
You must not understand that XC is not a revenue sport, and funding is usually very limited. Also, those other teams usually have a lot more coaches to supervise. A coach can handle about 40 XC kids if he/she is a solo coach, but even then, supervision is lacking somewhat.
Since when was it our job to make sure everyone is given a chance to compete?
I have never been in the business of letting kids out there because they work really hard. There’s a lot of kids in other sports that work hard that never touch the field/court. I have a lot of girls on my track team that show up and work hard every day. I try to figure out ways to get them in track meets if I can, but sometimes there’s just not the space. So, they don’t compete either.
Since you became a high school cross country coach. That's your job. It's high school. Kids should be rewarded for working hard.
Here is a true scenario from my first year coaching. The coach before me did not cut anyone, and the culture was a lazy one. The real runners did not run, because they saw it as a joke.
Anyway, she had a boy who was a junior, and had run for three years, but got slower each year, because he ate to much and ran too little. He would not have made the girls varsity team, and they were not competitive in our District. When I came in, I had a large group of freshmen join, and they started out at his level. In just a couple of weeks, they had surpassed him. He was not happy, and started trying to get them to slack off with him. Some did, but others came and told me what was going on.
Serious question: what would you have done?
Here is what I did. I se a minimum standard for Track events, and for XC events. His lack of effort in training left him short of the standards, although he had made them previously. Are you saying I should have tolerated his poor work ethic?
Like another poster said on the first page, itis the parents of the slow kids who cause the problems. His Momma complained at the awards banquet that he did not get an award. I asked her who got the award that her son should have gotten. She refused to answer.
Along the same lines as the OP. Would any of you cut in season if kids miss a certain number of practices? I don’t care how slow someone runs as long as they show up and do the work.
Along the same lines as the OP. Would any of you cut in season if kids miss a certain number of practices? I don’t care how slow someone runs as long as they show up and do the work.
No, as long as they are putting in the work. Just showing up, but walking a lot after a month or so? Probably send them on their way.
In 2017, Loudoun Valley coaches were thinking about doing cuts when 180 kids were interested in going out for the team. Then some of those people chose to not to join and that number went down to 130.
Large numbers like 180 can be too much for coaches
Never heard of tryouts for XC. For the most part it’s not like dozens of kids are scrambling to be running distance. Some teams don’t even have more than 7 runners. If there is a lot of interest Those that aren’t fast end up in JV and towards the end of the season don’t even compete since entries are limited to top 7 or 10.
Never heard of tryouts for XC. For the most part it’s not like dozens of kids are scrambling to be running distance. Some teams don’t even have more than 7 runners. If there is a lot of interest Those that aren’t fast end up in JV and towards the end of the season don’t even compete since entries are limited to top 7 or 10.
Varsity entries, yes. JV entries, at least in Texas, are unlimited.
The most I ever had start a JV race was 113 JV girls. All in purple. Swarming the course. It looked awesome. And they all finished in a reasonable time (sub-35), considering a large majority of them were using XC as off season training.
In the spirit of the thread, there were a handful of girls that I did not allow to race during those seasons I had the off season teams, because they were not fast enough. And they were fine with it. They still showed up to practice, as was the option.
I’m working on a more concrete list of season expectations as well as expectations of a team captain for the upcoming season. We don’t cut but kids are choosing to commit to the team and just showing up and putting in some effort will guarantee improvement.
If you were in a meet with 50 schools, that is 5000 JV runners.
Not every team has those numbers.
But that's also why meets down here have 6-10 races.
Here is the schedule with entry limits: Varsity Elite Men- 5K- Max 10 runners Varsity Elite Women- 5K- Max 10 runners Varsity Open Men- 5K- Max 16 runners Varsity Open Women- 5K- Max 16 runners JV Men- 5K- Unlimited JV Women- 5K- Unlimited
And the JV races are still loaded with kids.
Also, the Marcus Invite, still limited until you get to the open JV races: Race 1: GIRLS ELITE VARSITY max 7 runners (5K) Race 2: BOYS ELITE VARSITY max 7 runners (5K) Race 3: GIRLS OPEN VARSITY max 10 runners (5K) Race 4: BOYS OPEN VARSITY max 10 runners (5K) Race 5: GIRLS ELITE JV (5K) Race 6: BOYS ELITE JV (5K) Race 7: BOYS OPEN JV (3200M) Race 8: OPEN (3200M) - JV GIRLS OPEN, MIDDLE, SMALL SCHOOL
a soccer team has a finite number of players on the field. may have a sub limit per game or at least sub rules where subs need to be used thoughtfully. may need to be concerned with do i win the game or does subbing in bad players affect the outcome. but even then they may look for a chance to get in the last roster guys in a 5-0 blowout.
likewise, your baseball analogy, i have been the 1B who makes 3 errors in an inning in tee ball. but i also know i grew up to be fast as heck and good hand eye and think baseball screwed up with how harsh it was on me at a 5 year old age. the smug folks ignoring my 110H friend example might consider the long game a little with their certitudes. at one point he was being thrown a bone with the odd meet. at another he was one of the team stars.
XC only compares in sports terms if there are finite roster slots. i get 7 for varsity but some states have no varsity limits, or open JV, or we had frosh teams too. once you have open rosters, in sports terms, this ceases to be the scrub midfielder who is wanting to be the 19th guy on an 18 man list. i can give him his shot and he's not squeezing the first 18. he is not making the first 5 scorers worse. he is not making the varsity slower. he is not making throwing errors to first that cost the team. he just doesn't do so hot for himself -- at least at first.
you're like, but we can't take everyone. but this isn't true. my junior high track team took everyone for practice. meets were earned. but anyone could practice. and anyone who did practice, like my buddy, was usually thrown the odd bone. every 2-3 weeks instead of running both mile and 2 mile or 100 and 200, you ran 1 event, and they got a try. the world does not end, you don't do that much worse at the meet, and the scrub keeps trying. and a couple early scrubs i knew, rare meets and zero points in junior high, were stars at the end.
people mention budgets and bus numbers, but we're talking about singlets and adding 1 more bus. do you know how many players texas football teams dress for HS? at varsity + JV + soph + frosh? how many buses of kids go to football games, football, pads and equipment, band, drill team? but XC can't have a second bus. sorry but if you buy that you have sold out your own sport. whatever.
and the one that's worse is the subjective ego thing of embarrassment. no one is telling you no. the bus isn't full. the JV and frosh could use a body to score perhaps. and you're all snooty that the kid runs 25.
and you wonder why some schools have like 10 kids in the whole program. it's the varsity and whoever else bothers. and on paper they will all be pretty quick, but that has more to do with you created an environment designed to run off people. to make you artificially look good. when really it's the junior high already handed you fast kids who showed up running 4:30 or better.
my answer to all your bull is southlake. you can make the team a budget priority. you can chase success in bulk. you can have fast kids and have a bunch of scrubs. same time. not mutually exclusive. you just are either playing along with inconsistent budget limits not applying to other sports, or you are a baby nazi who only wants to associate his team with speed. but that doesn't mean your team is good or better than the next guy's. that just means you are an exclusive brand exercise.
Since you became a high school cross country coach. That's your job. It's high school. Kids should be rewarded for working hard.
Here is a true scenario from my first year coaching. The coach before me did not cut anyone, and the culture was a lazy one. The real runners did not run, because they saw it as a joke.
Anyway, she had a boy who was a junior, and had run for three years, but got slower each year, because he ate to much and ran too little. He would not have made the girls varsity team, and they were not competitive in our District. When I came in, I had a large group of freshmen join, and they started out at his level. In just a couple of weeks, they had surpassed him. He was not happy, and started trying to get them to slack off with him. Some did, but others came and told me what was going on.
Serious question: what would you have done?
Here is what I did. I se a minimum standard for Track events, and for XC events. His lack of effort in training left him short of the standards, although he had made them previously. Are you saying I should have tolerated his poor work ethic?
Like another poster said on the first page, itis the parents of the slow kids who cause the problems. His Momma complained at the awards banquet that he did not get an award. I asked her who got the award that her son should have gotten. She refused to answer.
look, i am sure southlake has some sort of effort or discipline boundaries too. but i would assume that instead of being insincere and policing "discipline" with "time," they literally identify "discipline" problems. because there might be kids who have "time" issues but give full effort. you're looking for your CYA such that you're willing to toss nice, hard working effort kids to maintain your smokescreen on tossing discipline problems.
as someone who got tossed off the hurdle squad because despite being the fastest team member, placing in the area, i was often at soccer practice instead, and laughably bad at close-order hurdle drills (as opposed to form) when i showed up, to the point i would start giggling, i think some of this is just about showing who was boss. i went over to sprints with college recruitable hurdle times. they lost their best hurdler. they got rid of their giggler. my experience, counterproductive. i find a lot of this to be macho bs.
only so many you can supervise is a function of teams and coaches. that's bull. how many kids do you think your football teams have, total, all teams? hundreds. you split them up in multiple teams with separate sets of coaches.
x number kids over here with coach A varsity group. y number over there JV with coach B. z number with JV coach C.
and all due respect but my HS coach struggled to watch and discipline like 15 kids. XC they might be running off campus or around the edges other side of the campus. can we quit pretending this is eyes on at all times?
to me it's more like you would lose most of the track of who is who and wouldn't be sure if you were kicking some star runner off the team. it's not that you're watching at all times, it's whether you are on top of your roster. which, like i said, break it up in teams. my school had 3 teams. if we'd had decent participation, like southlake, 3 or more coaches.
My school did cuts my sophomore year, though if kids who were slow but showed a lot of initiative (showed up to summer practices, basically showed they would work hard just were not talented) they were still let on. It was basically a way of cutting the slow and lazy kids.
I had a buddy whose school would get around 100 for tryouts just for XC alone (a big Southern Section school in California) so cuts totally made sense then.
It's tough if he wants to do it, but even if he doesn't make the team as a freshman if he keeps running consistently for a year his times should likely drop enough to make it. Perhaps if he expressed to the coach that he will really work hard they may be more lenient.