Uneducated? Most of us aren't the ones simping to a school to find a track and pandering here looking for a support base .
Educated people are far more resourceful.
The fact that you're unwilling to address the entire community resource management aspect of this tells me you're entirely unprepared to discuss this subject in a meaningful manner.
If you use a track like the one that my high school has, where it's open to the public almost 24/7, do you complain about safety and entitlement of the people using it, or do you say, "Hey, cool, an open track!"? Why is it that some places have this policy and some have the opposite? It seems communities enjoy these facilities, and I'm yet to find many reasons to keep them closed.
It's not self-centered to want what's best for a community and allow your fellow citizen to enjoy outdoor recreation.
I suggest reading "This is Water," to address your blind certainties and understanding the real value of education. After that, we can discuss resource management from an academic and practical standpoint. Meet back here in a week?
No. Because I can't even begin to start to understand your line of thought as other than selfish because you're not going to bat for public track usage for the community at large. You're instead trying to sculpt a plan for you to use the track. Your aims are hardly altruistic so we really cannot discuss this any further until you develop a sense of universalism to go with your desire to train.
Uneducated? Most of us aren't the ones simping to a school to find a track and pandering here looking for a support base .
Educated people are far more resourceful.
The fact that you're unwilling to address the entire community resource management aspect of this tells me you're entirely unprepared to discuss this subject in a meaningful manner.
If you use a track like the one that my high school has, where it's open to the public almost 24/7, do you complain about safety and entitlement of the people using it, or do you say, "Hey, cool, an open track!"? Why is it that some places have this policy and some have the opposite? It seems communities enjoy these facilities, and I'm yet to find many reasons to keep them closed.
It's not self-centered to want what's best for a community and allow your fellow citizen to enjoy outdoor recreation.
I suggest reading "This is Water," to address your blind certainties and understanding the real value of education. After that, we can discuss resource management from an academic and practical standpoint. Meet back here in a week?
Um. I have the good sense to know not to use a school track during school and sport practice hours.
I do not know what division you ran college track in but I know your coach would never have welcomed non-track athletes or students or community runners on the track... because it's CLOSED to them.
And if you didn't run college track, you should not be arguing this.
The fact that you're unwilling to address the entire community resource management aspect of this tells me you're entirely unprepared to discuss this subject in a meaningful manner.
If you use a track like the one that my high school has, where it's open to the public almost 24/7, do you complain about safety and entitlement of the people using it, or do you say, "Hey, cool, an open track!"? Why is it that some places have this policy and some have the opposite? It seems communities enjoy these facilities, and I'm yet to find many reasons to keep them closed.
It's not self-centered to want what's best for a community and allow your fellow citizen to enjoy outdoor recreation.
I suggest reading "This is Water," to address your blind certainties and understanding the real value of education. After that, we can discuss resource management from an academic and practical standpoint. Meet back here in a week?
Um. I have the good sense to know not to use a school track during school and sport practice hours.
I do not know what division you ran college track in but I know your coach would never have welcomed non-track athletes or students or community runners on the track... because it's CLOSED to them.
And if you didn't run college track, you should not be arguing this.
Eh I’ve lived near D1 schools, and the track was open. This isn’t true at all.
I went to a middle school track today at 7AM and after I parked and got out of my car a lady who worked at the school started yelling at me from a distance so I walked over to her and explained that I was going to use the track she told me that campus is closed from 6:30AM-5:30PM but no one was using the track when I was there. Are my tax dollars not used to build these public schools? How am I not allowed to run on a public track. Given if there were students there using the track I would’ve just left as soon as I saw it in use but there was literally no one there. This lady seemed angry and gave me attitude as well. There are also no signs posted anywhere saying it’s closed.
You are in the wrong.
The "my taxpayers built the track" is a lazy argument. Your tax dollars built the chemistry lab (maybe not at a middle school) so are you allowed to use it? Your tax dollars built fighter jets, can you use one?
You should run the hallways of the school and tell them "my tax dollars say I can run this school". Go into the classroom and start using the computer and say "my tax dollars say I bought this and it's a public computer"
I’m just there to run on the track, don’t take this out of context
Um. I have the good sense to know not to use a school track during school and sport practice hours.
I do not know what division you ran college track in but I know your coach would never have welcomed non-track athletes or students or community runners on the track... because it's CLOSED to them.
And if you didn't run college track, you should not be arguing this.
Eh I’ve lived near D1 schools, and the track was open. This isn’t true at all.
The fact that you're unwilling to address the entire community resource management aspect of this tells me you're entirely unprepared to discuss this subject in a meaningful manner.
If you use a track like the one that my high school has, where it's open to the public almost 24/7, do you complain about safety and entitlement of the people using it, or do you say, "Hey, cool, an open track!"? Why is it that some places have this policy and some have the opposite? It seems communities enjoy these facilities, and I'm yet to find many reasons to keep them closed.
It's not self-centered to want what's best for a community and allow your fellow citizen to enjoy outdoor recreation.
I suggest reading "This is Water," to address your blind certainties and understanding the real value of education. After that, we can discuss resource management from an academic and practical standpoint. Meet back here in a week?
No. Because I can't even begin to start to understand your line of thought as other than selfish because you're not going to bat for public track usage for the community at large. You're instead trying to sculpt a plan for you to use the track. Your aims are hardly altruistic so we really cannot discuss this any further until you develop a sense of universalism to go with your desire to train.
I told you that you weren't ready for a discussion about resource management. Of course I want a public track, it turns out they're expensive. I live in a not too prosperous rural community. It's much more challenging to build a brand new facility than make small changes to an existing one's policies.
For what it's worth, I ran D3 and the track we used was open to the public for the vast majority of the time, and we often shared it with community members during practice. So you are very wrong on this. There's a university here and I'm friends with the coach. They recently built new facilities. The coach wanted them to be open to the public but the school admins said no. I'm very certain most coaches share this sentiment.
The fact that you think someone who didn't run in college can't weigh in on this is also not very community oriented. I want EVERYONE to have safe, easy recreation opportunities. What do you not understand?
No. Because I can't even begin to start to understand your line of thought as other than selfish because you're not going to bat for public track usage for the community at large. You're instead trying to sculpt a plan for you to use the track. Your aims are hardly altruistic so we really cannot discuss this any further until you develop a sense of universalism to go with your desire to train.
I told you that you weren't ready for a discussion about resource management. Of course I want a public track, it turns out they're expensive. I live in a not too prosperous rural community. It's much more challenging to build a brand new facility than make small changes to an existing one's policies.
For what it's worth, I ran D3 and the track we used was open to the public for the vast majority of the time, and we often shared it with community members during practice. So you are very wrong on this. There's a university here and I'm friends with the coach. They recently built new facilities. The coach wanted them to be open to the public but the school admins said no. I'm very certain most coaches share this sentiment.
The fact that you think someone who didn't run in college can't weigh in on this is also not very community oriented. I want EVERYONE to have safe, easy recreation opportunities. What do you not understand?
What do I not understand? I don't understand why that venue for "easy recreation opportunities" has to be a school (that you're not affiliated with).
No. Because I can't even begin to start to understand your line of thought as other than selfish because you're not going to bat for public track usage for the community at large. You're instead trying to sculpt a plan for you to use the track. Your aims are hardly altruistic so we really cannot discuss this any further until you develop a sense of universalism to go with your desire to train.
I told you that you weren't ready for a discussion about resource management. Of course I want a public track, it turns out they're expensive. I live in a not too prosperous rural community. It's much more challenging to build a brand new facility than make small changes to an existing one's policies.
For what it's worth, I ran D3 and the track we used was open to the public for the vast majority of the time, and we often shared it with community members during practice. So you are very wrong on this. There's a university here and I'm friends with the coach. They recently built new facilities. The coach wanted them to be open to the public but the school admins said no. I'm very certain most coaches share this sentiment.
The fact that you think someone who didn't run in college can't weigh in on this is also not very community oriented. I want EVERYONE to have safe, easy recreation opportunities. What do you not understand?
And even when they were a NAIA school, Cal State San Marcos and Coach Scott and his staff would never have been okay with people being on the Mangrum track during practice time. The practices with sprinters and distance, etc. took all eight lanes.
the innards of a school are off-limits to the general public unless there is a public event eg a basketball or volleyball game. duh. but where i live people often use the HS football field for pickup soccer. or the junior high-elementary complex for kid's soccer practices, tee-ball, youth football, and pickup basketball. i also would use the junior high complex for running because it had a dirt track but also a large, grassy area that i could run loops of which i considered a better surface for my knees. people use my old HS's tennis courts. so clearly there are some cross-over points where they become akin to a public park. the outside sporting areas, not the inside.
of those usages, i have experienced pushback only on (a) HS football coach punted us off the football field and (b) i like to run at night and i have been chased off my grass loop once for running there after hours. even though i have never had an issue in the afternoon.
i could see vague parking or safety issues in allowing adults on campus during school hours, or perhaps late at night. however decades ago when i was in HS we tolerated joggers during the school day -- not during practice -- if they would stay in certain lanes while we did our thing. i do not know if the increased issue with school shootings has changed that calculus/risk tolerance.
but particularly after the school day is done, sorry, in a lot of areas it either "is" the de facto public park or is used like one of them. and in certain times of the year if you had to wait until school is done you'd be there at night, and they seem ill at ease with that also.
I went to a middle school track today at 7AM and after I parked and got out of my car a lady who worked at the school started yelling at me from a distance so I walked over to her and explained that I was going to use the track she told me that campus is closed from 6:30AM-5:30PM but no one was using the track when I was there. Are my tax dollars not used to build these public schools? How am I not allowed to run on a public track. Given if there were students there using the track I would’ve just left as soon as I saw it in use but there was literally no one there. This lady seemed angry and gave me attitude as well. There are also no signs posted anywhere saying it’s closed.
You are in the wrong.
The "my taxpayers built the track" is a lazy argument. Your tax dollars built the chemistry lab (maybe not at a middle school) so are you allowed to use it? Your tax dollars built fighter jets, can you use one?
It is not a "public" track.
This too is a lazy argument. There's varying degrees to which you can use publicly funded facilities. I can go to a library and no one sees that as an issue. I can walk into certain areas of government buildings and property and it's totally allowed. It's a risk vs reward situation.
The risk of me going to a chemistry lab is high. I could hurt myself. There's likely only one chemistry lab. There's fragile and expensive equipment. I'd have to be in close proximity to children to access it. Seems like there's very little to benefit here when compared to the risks.
The risk of me using a fighter jet is, uh, very high. I won't go into that.
The risk of me using a school's track is extremely low.
No...it is not a public track. It is a school track for the students...not you.
So, if you wanted to play a pickup game of basketball...you think you can just enter the school and play basketball whenever you want?
So, if you wanted to make something in a shop class...you think you can just go in and use the equipment?
The audacity of some fools. A public track is like a public basketball court...it would be in a public park.
Next time you want to use any facility at any school, check and get permission first to see what the policy is. If not get off the grounds when the school staff or officials tell you to.
Your examples are ridiculous and not even close to the same thing. Those things are clearly disruptive, but you cannot possibly tell me why any reasonable person should be opposed to runner using a track when it is not otherwise being used by the school. If you are bothered by this, then you are an unreasonable person.
If you're out on the track interrupting a practice, gym class, etc, fine. But that's clearly not the situation here.
The "my taxpayers built the track" is a lazy argument. Your tax dollars built the chemistry lab (maybe not at a middle school) so are you allowed to use it? Your tax dollars built fighter jets, can you use one?
It is not a "public" track.
This too is a lazy argument. There's varying degrees to which you can use publicly funded facilities. I can go to a library and no one sees that as an issue. I can walk into certain areas of government buildings and property and it's totally allowed. It's a risk vs reward situation.
The risk of me going to a chemistry lab is high. I could hurt myself. There's likely only one chemistry lab. There's fragile and expensive equipment. I'd have to be in close proximity to children to access it. Seems like there's very little to benefit here when compared to the risks.
The risk of me using a fighter jet is, uh, very high. I won't go into that.
The risk of me using a school's track is extremely low.
Teachers, students, staff and administration all need to both know for themselves and allow their kids the reassurance that school is a safe place from the outside world and some of the creepy people out there.
When you blur the lines to let the public in during the exact time they get a break from the public, you're diminishing that safety.
No...it is not a public track. It is a school track for the students...not you.
So, if you wanted to play a pickup game of basketball...you think you can just enter the school and play basketball whenever you want?
So, if you wanted to make something in a shop class...you think you can just go in and use the equipment?
The audacity of some fools. A public track is like a public basketball court...it would be in a public park.
Next time you want to use any facility at any school, check and get permission first to see what the policy is. If not get off the grounds when the school staff or officials tell you to.
Your examples are ridiculous and not even close to the same thing. Those things are clearly disruptive, but you cannot possibly tell me why any reasonable person should be opposed to runner using a track when it is not otherwise being used by the school. If you are bothered by this, then you are an unreasonable person.
If you're out on the track interrupting a practice, gym class, etc, fine. But that's clearly not the situation here.
It's because it's not your school so it's not an entitlement you get. And in looking at the community aspect, what if there are 40 people using the track during school hours when students aren't at the track? It does compromise safety.
I told you that you weren't ready for a discussion about resource management. Of course I want a public track, it turns out they're expensive. I live in a not too prosperous rural community. It's much more challenging to build a brand new facility than make small changes to an existing one's policies.
For what it's worth, I ran D3 and the track we used was open to the public for the vast majority of the time, and we often shared it with community members during practice. So you are very wrong on this. There's a university here and I'm friends with the coach. They recently built new facilities. The coach wanted them to be open to the public but the school admins said no. I'm very certain most coaches share this sentiment.
The fact that you think someone who didn't run in college can't weigh in on this is also not very community oriented. I want EVERYONE to have safe, easy recreation opportunities. What do you not understand?
What do I not understand? I don't understand why that venue for "easy recreation opportunities" has to be a school (that you're not affiliated with).
the part you're struggling with is that while an open grassy area/trails for running may exist in many parks or communities, a literal running track is usually going to be within the bounds of some school, secondary or college. as i was discussing on another thread about how long we stick with running after college, an issue in the US with running is we associate it with school and the infrastructure for doing it after college disappears. unlike europe we don't have athletics clubs that have a track/access to a track. we have few club track teams and they have to use school facilities to do it.
so, in short, the facilities don't exist unless you go on a campus. i live in a big city and i know of no public park tracks outside of a campus. ergo people who want to do the sport are stuck in limbo trying to use campus facilities they can be punted from at any moment even if the gate was open, no one else is there, and they are acting harmlessly. and i get the reasons why but if we're gonna play that game then we should build public versions. eg most parks have a soccer complex, a baseball complex, a couple basketball courts.
Your examples are ridiculous and not even close to the same thing. Those things are clearly disruptive, but you cannot possibly tell me why any reasonable person should be opposed to runner using a track when it is not otherwise being used by the school. If you are bothered by this, then you are an unreasonable person.
If you're out on the track interrupting a practice, gym class, etc, fine. But that's clearly not the situation here.
It's because it's not your school so it's not an entitlement you get. And in looking at the community aspect, what if there are 40 people using the track during school hours when students aren't at the track? It does compromise safety.
I would go further and ask why anyone who supports this thinks they should be at a school track to begin with during the hours of school. That's weird.
It's because it's not your school so it's not an entitlement you get. And in looking at the community aspect, what if there are 40 people using the track during school hours when students aren't at the track? It does compromise safety.
I would go further and ask why anyone who supports this thinks they should be at a school track to begin with during the hours of school. That's weird.
The deeper safety issue is that in a middle school, here's who is qualified and meant to be there:
1. Faculty, staff and administrators who have passed background checks
2. Children, grade 6-8, or 6-9 or 5-9 depending on the school and/or district
3. Parents, relatives, guardians and authorized pick-ups (as long as they are on an approved list)
4. Special guests (pre-arranged through the administration and/or district office)
5. After school child care staff (if applicable --also passed background checks)
6. Supply/Package delivery
7. District Personnel
Nobody who isn't within this comprehensive list belong on school grounds during school time.
your "what if" is silly. i have never seen more than, say, 4 grannies using a track walking together at one time. that is who might want to use a track during daylight working hours. retired people, out of work, shift workers. 1-4 people at a time. the general public's work schedule isn't even going to let them be there same time as school kids.
inasmuch as there is generally no real concern about 40 adults showing up during normal weekday work hours, the real issue is do we let isolated granny walkers on and at what times.
and i am sorry but the degree of security concern here is absurd and reminds me of recent experience with a connecting flight off an international vacation. i was screened in the foreign country. i had no intent to do anything but go on my connecting flight. you could not access the connecting flight area. but they made us not just go through passports but also go through detectors again ourselves plus retrieve, rescreen, and recheck bags, all of which had been already screened abroad, and the area being limited to only those who were flying in from abroad.
I told you that you weren't ready for a discussion about resource management. Of course I want a public track, it turns out they're expensive. I live in a not too prosperous rural community. It's much more challenging to build a brand new facility than make small changes to an existing one's policies.
For what it's worth, I ran D3 and the track we used was open to the public for the vast majority of the time, and we often shared it with community members during practice. So you are very wrong on this. There's a university here and I'm friends with the coach. They recently built new facilities. The coach wanted them to be open to the public but the school admins said no. I'm very certain most coaches share this sentiment.
The fact that you think someone who didn't run in college can't weigh in on this is also not very community oriented. I want EVERYONE to have safe, easy recreation opportunities. What do you not understand?
What do I not understand? I don't understand why that venue for "easy recreation opportunities" has to be a school (that you're not affiliated with).
The key difference between our arguments is that:
* I believe publicly funded facilities and communities can safely engage and interact with each other assuming you weigh the benefits and risks.
* You don't see the opportunity and value for a publicly funded facility to serve multiple purposes. Or if you do, you overly emphasize safety.
My community likely can not afford to build a new track. We barely have any parks. I believe it is in the public's best interest to have reasonable access to these facilities. In the summer, they leave it open much more, and if you show up on any day, you'll see people from all walks of life using it. We know this can safely and reasonably extended to before and after school hours, and in lots of communities even during school hours. Another example of how this makes no sense. They lock up the track where I live, but no one ever bats an eye if you're on their un-gated grass practice fields.
In regards to safety: * If there are 40 people using a track during school hours, I do understand the issue
* Show me a track anywhere where there's more than a handful of people during school hours using a track. Even at my HS, which was open 24/7, it would be just a few people.
* The danger of someone being in direct communication and close proximity to students is way higher than someone jogging some laps hundreds of meters away from kids.
* It's not weird for adults to be in proximity of children. I can go to the library and be surrounded by children.
As a followup to reading "This is Water," I suggest reading "The Coddling of the American Mind." It's largely about the culture of higher education student bodies in America, but it discusses this overemphasis on "safety" that's prevalent today. I believe you would benefit form reading it.
The "my taxpayers built the track" is a lazy argument. Your tax dollars built the chemistry lab (maybe not at a middle school) so are you allowed to use it? Your tax dollars built fighter jets, can you use one?
It is not a "public" track.
Hahahahaha are you seriously equating using a track to flying a fighter jet? We've established that the "tax dollars" argument doesn't always work, but you go and take an extreme example of a case where a tax funded thing is very obviously not available for public use, and claim that its rules apply to everything else. Are you also bothered by kids playing on a school playground while visiting their grandparents on the weekend?
Try using some common sense. Who is being harmed by a runner using a track when nobody else is using it?