Where Does Bob Kennedy's Career Rank?

ok well put it this way. Lagat vs. Morceli. Lagat has run a second faster than Morceli but has nowhere near the competitive record that Morceli ever had. In fact, only ElG has a better championship and win-streak record. If we always go by times and nothing else, then by your reasoning and FW's, Lagat is a better miler than Morceli which seems a little funny don't you think? Especially considering how few races Lagat has actually won in the last four years. Point is, you can't go by times alone in comparing "greatness."

Lets be honest the whole international scene has changed so dramatically if you try and compare him to guys who ran in much less competitive eras its not really fair.

I mean there is so much more depth nowdays than ever before and to win olympic titles nowdays is something not even the best of the best have been able to do multiple times.

another way of measuring is how close his pbs were to the best in the world at the time, possibly a way of measuring , at least you eliminate the depth problem and get a more realistic picture.

his 1500m pb was x off the world lead

his 10km was x of the world lead

Then average them out to see who is the best..

Not sure how you can measure runners that competed 20 years apart by simply looking at the numbers. By the way Coe has two Oly golds in the 1500 and Ovett has none, but Ovett does have 800 gold.

Lagat also had the benefit of a rabbit (ElG) taking him along 3:26-3:27 pace all the time. The other guys in the past didn't have that, another thing to remember....

Let me see if I can summarize the arguments made here about Bob Kennedy

* Stand-up, first-class, all-around nice guy who has given a lot back to the sport. Tick! I think nearly everyone agrees on that.

* Must get some sort of credit for his durability and consistency in competition. I think everyone agrees on that, but how much weight do you give that.

* By all accounts, a great competitor who didn't give up in races

* Made the best of relatively limited basic speed.

* Dominant on the American scene, and set a long-standing American record. Gotta give the man some credit for this, no?

* No major international wins or medals. Indisputably true.

* Ran against some really fast people from other countries. If they hadn't run so fast, he might have won medals or European track races.

How you slot Kennedy into some list of all-time great American runners really depends on what weight you give to each of these factors. The first one--what a great guy he is--is bound to favor current runners since few on this board can remember what some of the greats were like in person.

Kennedy was a great runner and racer -- whether he's 9th or 11th on some fictional all-time list of American distance runners won't alter the basic facts about his career.

sittin-on-a-ritz wrote:

Get off of that 12:58!

It was a time trial race.. He did not even win the race which would have been more important than his finishing time...

Running races is about winning not what time you ran...

Now slowly...

let it sink in..

ahhhh there...

Wow, im sorry now that you put it that way clearly 12:58 is easily overlooked and means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

IBelieveICanRun wrote:

Wow, im sorry now that you put it that way clearly 12:58 is easily overlooked and means nothing in the grand scheme of things.

I can remember when Said Aouita, arguably the greatest runner of his generation with amazing mile speed, struggled with breaking 13:00 for several years. Now multiple Africans are damn near running that for the second half of their 10k races. I call bullshit. Breaking 13:00 in and of itself is quite a feat, and training methods have not improved that much over time. Guys were running BIG mileage thirty years ago, but nobody could break 13:00, let alone smash it. Too bad that drugs have so permeated endurance events that they will no longer be pure, and all of the existing records are tantamount to Mark McGuire's 73 HR.

wrote:

So by your reasoning, Bernard Lagat is a far better than Coe, Cram or Ovett because he has a faster 1500m time though he doesn't have Oly golds. Wow that makes a lot of sense.

As far as 1500 meters goes, yes, Lagat is better...as others have said. SOME credit of course goes to Olympic Gold medalists, but ONE gold medal and then a ho-hum career beyond that should not elevate that person to better than someone who hasn't wold a gold medal.

Cacho won gold in 3:40. Clearly he was a better runner than that time suggests, but if an Olmpic 1500 final can be won in such a slow time, that suggests that some not-so-stellar athletes can sometimes come away with a victory. As Olympic finals tend to be tactical races, sometimes a slower athlete wins. Can't then say that that athlete is better than someone who was consistently stellar yet never won a gold medal.

people on these boards always forget that Ethiopia had a really bad civil war in the mid80s and didn't come out of it somewhat until the early-to-mid 90s. Recall that Ethiopia won 3 or 4 XC team titles in the early 80s. They were studs, but then they disappeared off the world map because of the civil war. So imagine if there was no civil war and Kenya had a strong team to contend with, it would be like the late 90s all over again except ten years earlier. The drops in distance running just seem big to us because people here always look at the last ten years. 13:00 probably wouldn't have been as big a deal back then if we had the Ethiopians in the mix of things.

Since you are comparing Lagat to Coe, etc., I'll take the other side as well. First of all, neither Ovett or Cram won Oly gold in the 1500. Coe, on the other hand, won two Oly titles in the 1500 and definitely didn't have a ho-hum career beyond the Olympics. Neither did Ovett or Cram. Not arguing that all three were better than Lagat, but I have a hard time putting Lagat ahead of Coe just because 20 years later times have improved. Coe was winning titles AND setting records in the 1500, mile, and his 800 WR stood for 16 years. I know you are referring just to the 1500, but his record at 800 is one reason I still put Coe ahead of Lagat as a runner. Kipketer is still the only one to run an 800 faster -- going on 25 years later!

Travis Bickle wrote:

BTW Coe never actually won a global title. The Olympics he ran in were heavily boycotted. He missed on competing against HUGE rivals in 1980 such as Walker, Scott to name a few.

Of course he did. There was nobody from the Soviet block in 1984 with a prayer of competing with Coe, Abascal or Cram in the 1500. Certainly nobody with a chance to pop off a 3:32 in an Olympic final. (Jurgen Straub sure as hell wasn't about to do it.)

Billy Mills WR in the 6 mile was worth a 28:00 or slightly under for 10k. Wasn't his time (when he tied Lindgren) 27:11 for 6 miles?

Ron CLarke's 10k WR was 27:37.

I'm surprised that no one has yet mentioned the best U.S. distance runner ever, on an "absolute" performance basis:

Khalid Khannouchi

...There was nobody from the Soviet block in 1984 with a prayer of competing with Coe, Abascal or Cram in the 1500. Certainly nobody with a chance to pop off a 3:32 in an Olympic final. (Jurgen Straub sure as hell wasn't about to do it.)

Bob is unquestionably the best runner of his era. He was the first & still the only (American born)3K-10K runner who believed he could compete with the Africans. He was also competitive over a long period of time. It is likely the best Americans of this generation look up to Kennedy as the example they wish to follow.

As to the question of where Bob's career ranks compared to other Americans it is difficult to compare runners of other eras. Shorter has to rank #1. Two Olympic medals speak for themselves. Mills & Schul have Oly Gold & thats hard to argue with. As a runner coming of age in the Prefontaine era I have to make a case for Steve as the best purely US runner competing against other US runners.

I know, I know, many of you are tired of hearing about Prefontaine. However, his dominance against other US runners was thorough. First,look at his number of NCAA CC & Track championships. I did not have Pre's competitive history in making this post, but did Pre ever lose to an American in his Collegiate career over 3M/5K, 6M/10K or CC? Second, at the time of his death he held every American record from 3K to 10K. He also had a 3:54 mile. i can't think of an American who beat him. The guy was a supreme competitior. His 10K AR of 27:43 was a solo effort in terrible conditions without being pushed. Finally, the reason he did not medal in Munich was because he was willing to risk finishing out of the medals to win a gold medal. He had a Bronze locked up, but went for the win instead. If Steve were running today, he'd be a player Internationally, just like he was in the 70's.

I read all posts on this topic & Virgin, Marsh, Liquori, Salazar & others were excellent runners, but none had Prefontaines competitive record against other Americans.

In closing many runners of Pre's era are still waiting for the next Pre. Bob Kennedy came close & that is the finest compliment I can pay him.

Coe has TWO Olympic gold medals. It is obvious you are relatively new to the sport or simply naive.Kennedy may have been the best american during an extremely weak period for the US, but the world stage he was not a factor. He did relatively well in time trials in Europe, but still lost in the US in ~13:20 races.quote]Wrongo wrote:

wrote:

So by your reasoning, Bernard Lagat is a far better than Coe, Cram or Ovett because he has a faster 1500m time though he doesn't have Oly golds. Wow that makes a lot of sense.

Uh, actually, yes, Lagat is ABSOLUTELY better at 1500m than Coe, Cram, and Ovett.

Ovett has 1 1500m gold, Coe has 1, and Cram has 0.

With all due respect to thos three, who are simply fantastic runners, they never had to compete against someone who ran a 1:32.25 last 700m (El Guerrouj), nor did they run up against 3:30 1500m finals which were fast from the gun (2001 in Edmonton; had El Guerrouj not spent the last 40m slowing and turning sideways to wave to the ground, he would have run 3:29 in a CHAMPIONSHIP race).

Lagat has a silver and a bronze in Olympic competition.

The only two people who have ever defeated Lagat in Olympic competition are both 3:43 milers. One is simply a perennial WR holder and has run times at distance from 1500m-5,000m that blow anyone from the 80's away, and the other has run 2:11.96 for 1,000m, passing through 800m in 1:44 and continuing for another 200m more.

All respect to that English trio, but Lagat is better at 1500m in a fast race (3:26.34 PR), and, as we saw in Athens, slower ones as well.[/quote]

Flagpole Willy wrote:

Cacho won gold in 3:40. Clearly he was a better runner than that time suggests, but if an Olmpic 1500 final can be won in such a slow time, that suggests that some not-so-stellar athletes can sometimes come away with a victory. As Olympic finals tend to be tactical races, sometimes a slower athlete wins. Can't then say that that athlete is better than someone who was consistently stellar yet never won a gold medal.

Peter Rono in '88 would be a better example than Cacho.

Cacho's run 3:28, an Oly gold, an Oly silver, and two WC silvers. After Morceli and El G he's the best 1500 guy of the 1990s. His final 800 and final 400 in Barcelona weren't exactly slow. So yes he was a better runner than 3:40.

Coe has two Oly golds in the 1500, a silver in the 800. Coe didn't have to race against a 2:11 guy, he was a 1:41 guy. Lagat's never run against a 1:41 guy. It's more impressive to be a 1:41 guy than to lose to a 2:11 1000 guy.

El G's Edmonton race was incredible but he was rabitted by his teammate who ended up in about 3:50 or so - it was a time trial for him.

coach wrote:

In his book RUN WITH THE CHAMPIONS Marc Bloom ranks Kennedy #18 on his US's greatest male runner list.

1. Shorter 2. Ryun 3. Rodgers 4. Cunningham 5. Salazar 6. Mills 7. Schul 8. Prefontaine 9. Liquori 10. Beatty 11. Sheppard 12. Scott 13. Ashenfelter 14. Virgin 15. Kiviat 16. Edelen 17. Dellinger

The rest of his list is: 19. DeMar 20. Burleson 21. Maree

22. Marsh 23. G. Young 24. Lindgren 25. John J Kelly

26. J. Hayes 27. Corbitt 28. Spivey 29. Porter 30. Diemer

Where does Rexing fit on this list?