Or maybe East Africans, and people of that ancestry, do have distance running talent? That seems like a logical answer
Just look at Devan Kipyego and Izaiah Steury - I’d be shocked if one, let alone both are doping, but they’re of Kenyan and Ethiopian heritage, respectively.
A lot of people will overlook this dudes post put there is a ton of info/wisdom hidden in those words.
Even assuming some Africans are doping and winning, there is such a depth of talent that all things being even (everyone doping or everyone clean) they would still be the best in the world. IF Kitum showded us anything, its that access to information and coaching is pretty much universal now, esp in a place like Iten where everyone knows someone with a good coach. Just mimic their workouts and tailor it to your needs.
IF Americans throw up their hands each time a Kenyan runs a fast time, they have lost before they step on the start line.
The question you are all avoiding is why are US runners not running fast, they have the best of everything and are under raced.
Dont blame others for their fast time. If you have zero proof of doping, its just silly to scream about it ala Armstronglivs
Assuming? 200+ busts, including the former marathon world record holder, including the former half-marathon world record holder (who had a remarkably similar trajectory to this guy, except he was fortunately nabbed very early).
It's your assumption that Kenyans would still dominate without their rampant doping, using not only a drug that knocks 10 minutes off marathon times, but SARMS, roids, rat poison and the rest.
The fact that NO Kenyan ran sub 2:09 until EPO, wheras over a dozen Americans, Brits, Japanese, and Australians did, should give you pause for thought.
Of course doping might be a reason. To say it definitely is not, would be not realistic.
On the other hand I am quite sure that the Africans closed the gap in terms of sound race tactics, race fueling and, in first place, training. I am very sure that today the average African athlete has WAY better training than 20 or 30 years ago.
And when trained well, why shouldn't a 27 10k athlete run 58:xx and 2:02? Why shouldn't a 26:30 10k athlete run 57:xx and close to 2:00? That's at least my take on the times today.
Or maybe East Africans, and people of that ancestry, do have distance running talent? That seems like a logical answer
Just look at Devan Kipyego and Izaiah Steury - I’d be shocked if one, let alone both are doping, but they’re of Kenyan and Ethiopian heritage, respectively.
Well the tragedy is we don't know. And that's because of the rampant doping that's been allowed to take place in East Africa for decades.
You have no more reason to believe Kenyans have special talent at distance running, than you do Russians have for race walking, or women from the Eastern half of Germany have for the 400m, or women from the small Chinese region where Ma's army was selected from for distance running.
We know that before EPO exploded on to the scene around 1992, that (as per World Athletics all time list) no Kenyan had broken 2:10, whereas 25 non-Kenyans had (including 5 Japanese, and 10 runners of white European descent). Only 8 years later and 49 Kenyans had. If you want to say that Kenyans only 'got into' marathon running after 1992, isn't it a bit of coincidence that they seem to have invaded the marathon top lists en masse at exactly the moment EPO came on the scene.? Especially when in the context of 200+ busts over the next 30 years, including marathon and half-marathon world record holders and major winners?
Remember one DANIEL KOMEN (holder of the mount everest of world records) when he started winning races he was interviewed & said he had no tactics, his tactic was to run as fast as he could. Am kenyan & there thousands of talented kenyan runners all over here, most of them don't have coaches the most talented one gets a break by winning a race then he gets a coach & so forth.
I guess you’re excluding Boston as “aided” because Ibrahim Hussein outkicked Juma Ikangaa in 2:08 to win in 1988. Hussein basically had the same range as Rod Dixon - was an All-American in the 2 mile relay at New Mexico but somehow eventually ran 2:08.
Remember one DANIEL KOMEN (holder of the mount everest of world records) when he started winning races he was interviewed & said he had no tactics, his tactic was to run as fast as he could. Am kenyan & there thousands of talented kenyan runners all over here, most of them don't have coaches the most talented one gets a break by winning a race then he gets a coach & so forth.
He might not have had any tactics (or concept of time), but he sure had plenty of EPO.
Remember one DANIEL KOMEN (holder of the mount everest of world records) when he started winning races he was interviewed & said he had no tactics, his tactic was to run as fast as he could. Am kenyan & there thousands of talented kenyan runners all over here, most of them don't have coaches the most talented one gets a break by winning a race then he gets a coach & so forth.
He might not have had any tactics (or concept of time), but he sure had plenty of EPO.
Well for whatever reason, his performance is not included in the World Athletics all time list.
Remember one DANIEL KOMEN (holder of the mount everest of world records) when he started winning races he was interviewed & said he had no tactics, his tactic was to run as fast as he could. Am kenyan & there thousands of talented kenyan runners all over here, most of them don't have coaches the most talented one gets a break by winning a race then he gets a coach & so forth.
The true "Mount Everest of world records" is the women's 800, as it is more than a decade older.
"Zero proof" of doping? When Kenya incurred 40% of total doping positives last year? Head in the sand again.
I sincerely hope you don't work in any field related to science or law enforcement/the court system...even if 99% of Kenyans were doping (which I'm sure is what you believe in your little wonderland of pessimism and paranoia*), that would not constitute actual concrete evidence that any one given athlete is dirty. It would justify closer scrutiny, yes, but to assert that you have "proof" of their guilt based on national origin alone proves nothing other than prejudice. Unfortunately, it's easy to fall prey to the representativeness heuristic, but that's just intellectual laziness and cognitive bias for you.
*a wonderland where Jakob Ingebrigtsen, Laura Muir, and most other "Western" athletes (and closer to home, "American-born") are innocent until proven guilty. We all know what the terms in quotations are code for.
First of of, Kelvin is not 23. More likely 28-30. Finn-san says add 5-7 years.
What is the rationale for thinking he is lying about his age by that significant margin or at all? He never competed as a junior, so there is no financial incentive to lying about it. His first race I see that was tracked by World Athletics was in October of 2018. It'd be quite strange to debut at age 23-25, even if he was somewhat a diamond in the rough being from a tribe not known for distance running excellence.
In general, the time is eye-popping but I think we now need to readjust our thinking a bit because if you can run sub-59 you are capable of translating that into sub-2:03. Of course, there is no guarantee because many (maybe even most) athletes struggle at the full distance. Then of course conditions can come into play. As more of the athletes that run 57:xx and 58:xx make their marathon debuts, I'd expect 2:01s and 2:02s becoming more commonplace.
ya, sure
probably the facts below need tuning...
debut at 23 or whatever
no coach
training in the middle of no where.
said he was not in the best of shape.
closed in 159 low pace and under last half.
beat a probably drug filled field by 3 min. - 1km
ran 201.
think about what is probable here.
imagine breaking into the NBA and win MVP, at age 25, undrafted, self coached, from nowhereville.
imagine breaking into the NBA and win MVP, at age 25, undrafted, self coached, from nowhereville.
That's not the comparison. I can't imagine a 25 year old doing it. That would be a late blooming stiff by NBA standards.
I can absolutely imagine an 18 or 19 year old prodigy doing it.
It's hilarious ignorance to believe that the marathon would forever be immune to prodigies. Distance events in other sports are dominated by prodigies. In women's swimming the world record in the 800m hasn't been broken by anyone age 20+ in more than 75 years.
I guess you’re excluding Boston as “aided” because Ibrahim Hussein outkicked Juma Ikangaa in 2:08 to win in 1988. Hussein basically had the same range as Rod Dixon - was an All-American in the 2 mile relay at New Mexico but somehow eventually ran 2:08.
Coincidentally, Boston started offering prize money 2 years prior, so as many have said before, prize money more than anything really started this East African running boom.
And when trained well, why shouldn't a 27 10k athlete run 58:xx and 2:02? Why shouldn't a 26:30 10k athlete run 57:xx and close to 2:00? That's at least my take on the times today.
I saw one of the top analytics guys on a general sports site make that point a few years ago. He matter of factly said the track world has been conditioned to accept slower times in the marathon than the top athletes should actually be running. He predicted we'd soon see faster times and more of them on both the men's and women's side.
