These people are being treated as if they are sub human and many of you folks are showing your true colors. You folks know who you are and you are complete failures as people to be treating these people this way.
Your outrage is misplaced. Your virtue signaling should be held for cis-gendered female athletes who are not competing on a level playing field. Who will speak up for them? You?
Virtue signaling? Please stop with your nonsensical jargon. You hear a phrase you like and you parrot it endlessly like the empty headed person you are. The cis-gendered are not the ones being mocked endlessly by the cognitively challenged folks here.
These people are being treated as if they are sub human and many of you folks are showing your true colors. You folks know who you are and you are complete failures as people to be treating these people this way.
Your outrage is misplaced. Your virtue signaling should be held for cis-gendered female athletes who are not competing on a level playing field. Who will speak up for them? You?
Their last few posts were pure drivel, and baiting, revealing nothing more than trolling.
These people are being treated as if they are sub human and many of you folks are showing your true colors. You folks know who you are and you are complete failures as people to be treating these people this way.
No, they are not being "treated as they are sub human." They are being treated as human beings born with disorders of male sex development who are taking advantage of their rare, male-only medical conditions to compete in the wrong sex category - where they can easily trounce female athletes who are being denied a fair shot from the get-go...."
Brilliantly said. I'm telling you now I'm going to use some of this verbatim.
No, they are not being "treated as they are sub human." They are being treated as human beings born with disorders of male sex development who are taking advantage of their rare, male-only medical conditions to compete in the wrong sex category - where they can easily trounce female athletes who are being denied a fair shot from the get-go...."
Brilliantly said. I'm telling you now I'm going to use some of this verbatim.
It is NOT brilliantly said. It is mere pablum offered up to camouflage the bias you both share. Learn to think for yourself.
Your outrage is misplaced. Your virtue signaling should be held for cis-gendered female athletes who are not competing on a level playing field. Who will speak up for them? You?
Their last few posts were pure drivel, and baiting, revealing nothing more than trolling.
Sounds convincing except WA does NOT call the athletes in question male, in fact they go out of their way to say
"Is the IAAF questioning the sex or gender identity of female athletes with DSDs?
No. These Regulations exist solely to ensure fair and meaningful competition
within the female classification, for the benefit of the broad class of female athletes.
In no way are they intended as any kind of judgement on
or questioning of the sex or the gender identity of any athlete."
and the Explanatory Notes consistently use the pronoun 'she' - the pronoun 'he' doesn't appear once.
After decades of fighting over this issue in court since the 1980s, the IAAF/WA has sagely learned to pick its battles; and all its documents on this topic have been gone over by lawyers with a fine-toothed comb.
WA isn't going to challenge the claims any athletes make nowadays regarding their sex or gender identities because it's pointless - and beside the point here.
WA is well aware that legal sex is determined by documents such as birth certificates, passports and driver's licenses that the officials and administrators of governments can issue as they see fit to serve whatever purposes best suit them and their athletes at any given time. Moreover, many governments now allow citizens and residents to change the sex markers on their own BCs, passports, etc retroactively to state that they are and always have been the opposite sex to their actual biological sex.
(The governments of some countries such as France are now even allowing parents to go back and retroactively change the BCs of their children so that a person who fathered a child can be listed as the child's mother. Court cases have already been filed in various jurisdictions arguing that someone who gave birth to a child should have the legal right to be listed as the father on the child's BC, even though this would cause the child to be recorded in the government birth registry as not having a biological mother. )
Gender identity is an even murkier area not worth wrangling over in court. A gender identity is simply a belief about the self that some people have in their heads. It can't be verified, and it can't be falsified. Gender identity is also immaterial here because athletes do not compete in sports with their identities - they compete with they bodies. So bodies is what WA has focused on.
In its court filings in the Semenya case, and in its public briefings since the CAS decision was released in May of 2019, WA has made a point of saying its focus is on the ways that athletes' bodies differ due to:
the genetic difference between men (with male chromosomes, XY) and women (with female chromosomes, XX). That is because XY chromosomes produce testes (rather than ovaries), which produce testosterone in the typical male range (rather than testosterone in the – much lower – typical female range), which is what produces men’s bigger and stronger bones and muscles and higher haemoglobin levels, which gives them a massive performance advantage over women.
[In the Semenya case] CAS accepted this, and therefore accepted that the main driver of the marked sex difference in sport performance (10-12% on average) is the physical advantages conferred by having testosterone levels in the male range (7.7 - 29.4 nmol/L in blood) rather than the normal female range (0.06 -1.68 nmol/L).
Everyone agrees there must be separate male and female competition categories precisely to ensure that this genetic difference (XY chromosomes producing testes and high testosterone levels rather than XX chromosomes producing ovaries and low testosterone levels) is not outcome-determinative.
We regulate 46 XY DSD athletes because they have that same genetic difference. If that genetic difference makes it unfair for men to compete against women, it also (obviously) makes it unfair for 46 XY women to compete against women. The 46 XY DSD athlete’s testes mean that she produces testosterone not in the female range (0.06 to 1.68 nmol/L)* but instead in the male range (7.7 to 29.4 nmol/L). If a 46 XY DSD athlete's body can make use of the testosterone that it produces, then she has all the same advantages as a 46 XY man has over a 46 XX woman.
*In documents issued since this one was released in 2019, WA uses 0.02 rather than 0.06 nmol/L as the lower limit for the normal female range of T. This is probably because when it tested large numbers of elite track & field athletes competing in women's international events , WA found that female athletes (46,XX born with ovaries, not testes) had lower natural T levels than previously assumed. The median level was 0.69 nmol/L. 75% had T levels under 0.91 nmol/L.
They need to have equity across distances and extend the ban from 400m - mile to 0m - ultra. It's the only fair way. If I discovered I was intersex I would not line up on the start line and compete. When you read about it and testosterone you can see why it's totally unfair. It's the levels of testosterone.
They need to have equity across distances and extend the ban from 400m - mile to 0m - ultra. It's the only fair way. If I discovered I was intersex I would not line up on the start line and compete. When you read about it and testosterone you can see why it's totally unfair. It's the levels of testosterone.
It's not the levels of testosterone that makes the difference. Young boys who are very fast don't have lots of testosterone. It's a genetic trait.
Thank you for continuing to bring the facts re the DSD regulations and the athletes they pertain to. It's quite shocking how a couple of posters on here are so triggered by the truth and respond viciously to your posts.
As an aside, I noticed that last year's 1:56 woman Workwua (Workwuha?) Getachew, is now competing in the 3000m steeplechase. Following her breakout performance, she was projected to be a gold medal threat in the 800m at last year's Olympics but did not run.
I recall you already know the Hima Das 'injury' which somehow prevents her from running her per event (400m)
I'm surprised no one / Letsrun remarked on Getachew's performance in the steeple, if nothing else, it would certainly be an amazing range!
LRC Note. We changed the title of the thread. It was initially entitled, "Just catching up. A man wins womens 200m in Ostrava . (Video)" As a courtesy, please do not call an intersex woman a man. You can make the argument that in your mind they are more biologically male than female."
DSD athletes could possibly be threat in every T&F event, so Felix being in the same race doesn’t mean she has to be a spokesperson on the issue. The IAAF doesn’t care what she thinks anyway so she there is no reason for her to wade into such a divisive issue.
They need to have equity across distances and extend the ban from 400m - mile to 0m - ultra. It's the only fair way. If I discovered I was intersex I would not line up on the start line and compete. When you read about it and testosterone you can see why it's totally unfair. It's the levels of testosterone.
It's not the levels of testosterone that makes the difference. Young boys who are very fast don't have lots of testosterone. It's a genetic trait.
The sport needs an intersex category.
Yes, young boys who are very fast prior to starting the puberty of adolescence don't have lots of testosterone in their systems at the present moment. But a main reason they are fast is because they had very high levels of testosterone during crucial stages of development that happened years before - first whilst they were fetuses in their mothers' wombs, and again as babies when they went through the male mini puberty of infancy in the first year after birth.
Whilst genetics are at the heart of the matter, it's a bit simplistic to say that being fast - or good at other sports - is "a genetic trait."
As for for why males have physical features that give them a big advantage over females in most sports, that comes down to a combination of both genetics and hormones.
Genetics dictate which of two distinct developmental pathways humans proceed down during development in utero and later on in life. Thus genetics determine what kind of gonads human beings develop as fetuses, and which bodies will be shaped by the high amounts of endogenous testosterone that only one kind of gonads make.
In utero, humans with male genetics - principally the SRY gene that is usually on the Y sex chromosome in XY people - develop gonads, testes, that produce male amounts of testosterone. Humans with the SRY gene also develop male androgen receptors. When these male androgen receptors work properly - as they almost always do in people with a Y chromosome and SRY gene - they allow people with male genetics and male gonads to make use of the testosterone their testes pump out in ways that are typical for males.
By contrast, in utero humans with female genetics - who usually have XX chromosomes and always lack the SRY gene - develop gonads, ovaries, that produce teeny-tiny amounts of testosterone. Humans who develop ovaries also will be endowed with female androgen receptors that cause them to respond to the natural testosterone their bodies make in ways that are different to males. When testes pump out lots of testosterone, the high natural T has beneficial effects on people with male genetics and male androgen receptors. But when ovaries (or the adrenal glands) make lots of testosterone in people with female genetics and female androgen receptors, the high natural T leads to health problems - often very serious ones.
What gives males myriad advantages over females in most sports is not the current level of testosterone in their bodies, it's the legacy effects of already having gone through stages of development when the testes pumped out large amounts of testosterone and the rest of the body made use of all that testosterone in male-typical ways due to the presence of functioning male androgen receptors.
Little boys of 6,7, 8 etc who are fast on their feet - and/or sluggers in Little League, bruisers on the playground, or stars in kiddie soccer - might not have much testosterone in their bodies right now. But they definitely had a great deal of testosterone in their bodies when they were fetuses, and again during the male mini puberty of infancy.
Indeed, during the male mini puberty of infancy - which usually starts about 4 weeks after birth and lasts 4-7 months - the testosterone levels of male babies are as high as they will be many years later on down the line when they go through the puberty of adolescence and transform from boys into men. This is one of the reasons entirely different sets of growth charts are used to gauge the physical growth and development of male and female babies and toddlers - and why boys generally have an noticeable edge over girls in most sports prior to puberty of adolescence.
They need to have equity across distances and extend the ban from 400m - mile to 0m - ultra. It's the only fair way. If I discovered I was intersex I would not line up on the start line and compete. When you read about it and testosterone you can see why it's totally unfair. It's the levels of testosterone.
It's not the levels of testosterone that makes the difference. Young boys who are very fast don't have lots of testosterone. It's a genetic trait.
The sport needs an intersex category.
It's mainly the hormones plus biological differences like size. What factor do you think is bigger than testosterone? Young boys and girls around 10 and 11 often don't have much of a difference between them in terms of sport. You can see it easily visually in things like rounders in PE. When male puberty kicks in the difference is vast. Testosterone makes a massive difference to women as well in terms of performance. Normal levels are about
women - 15-70 (ng/dl)
men - 265-923
These are rough figures but I just put them in to emphasise the difference, which is vast.
7–10 years old male - 1.80 to 5.68 female - 2.69 to 10.29
13–17 years old male - 208.08 to 496.58 female - 16.72 to 31.55
Of course there are other factors, but in adult humans, the ban (for those distances) refers to testosterone and reducing levels of testosterone.
It's mainly the hormones plus biological differences like size. What factor do you think is bigger than testosterone? Young boys and girls around 10 and 11 often don't have much of a difference between them in terms of sport. You can see it easily visually in things like rounders in PE. When male puberty kicks in the difference is vast. Testosterone makes a massive difference to women as well in terms of performance. Normal levels are about
women - 15-70 (ng/dl)
men - 265-923
These are rough figures but I just put them in to emphasise the difference, which is vast.
7–10 years old male - 1.80 to 5.68 female - 2.69 to 10.29
13–17 years old male - 208.08 to 496.58 female - 16.72 to 31.55
Of course there are other factors, but in adult humans, the ban (for those distances) refers to testosterone and reducing levels of testosterone.
I think you've made an error in claiming that female children ages 7-10 have significantly higher testosterone than males of the same age.
My understanding is that the Total Testosterone range for both sexes age 1-9 years is similar. After that, boys and girls diverge, with the boys having significantly higher T. I have never seen any material saying that girls age 7-10 normally have markedly higher T than boys of the same age.
The Mayo Clinic reference range for both boys and girls age 1-9 years is <7-20 ng/dL. After that the ranges are as follows:
LRC Note. We changed the title of the thread. It was initially entitled, "Just catching up. A man wins womens 200m in Ostrava . (Video)" As a courtesy, please do not call an intersex woman a man. You can make the argument that in your mind they are more biologically male than female."
DSD athletes could possibly be threat in every T&F event, so Felix being in the same race doesn’t mean she has to be a spokesperson on the issue. The IAAF doesn’t care what she thinks anyway so she there is no reason for her to wade into such a divisive issue.
She carries a lot of weight.
If she sees this as injustice, her speaking out could help
