Sprintgeezer wrote:
...
are you mentally ill?
Sprintgeezer wrote:
...
are you mentally ill?
So let me get this straight. Anyone from an African country who runs too fast has to be a doper, especially if they don't look exhausted at the end of the race and/or they have good races too close together. But those conditions don't apply to white guys from Norway?
Shelbo can take em down in a kick apples to apples. But not sure if she can kick in a race thats 1.3 sec faster than her best. I dare them to run a tactical in Tokyo! SH and even Purrier will track em down like dogs.
Sprintgeezer wrote:
Thoughtsleader, I singled out those names because they are the ones I find especially boring, the ones I can’t get myself to react to in a human way, one of empathy, understanding, and interest. It’s like they’re just mechanisms.
All normal people have some basic reactions to basic behaviors from people. In most cultures around the world, her reactions after this race would engender feelings of warmth, goodwill, well-being, etc.
BUT I FEEL NOTHING. To me she lacks humanity. .
I don't want to get into the psycho-babble of the rest of your post.
To say that Sifan Hassan lacks humanity because she does incredible things on the track...? This is all because it doesn't look hard enough to you to think she's not doping (OK?). Again, I just don't get it, sprintgeezer.
Look at Sifan's joy every time she runs or speaks in an interview. Her post-race comments were these: "“I did not prepare for speed, I trained more for the 10,000m and I thought that Faith Kipyegon was going to win. At 800m we were so fast, but I tried to do my best. I am surprised about the time.” Running and winning in that time clearly put her in a joyous state and it was unexpected to her.
From all you could ever read about her and hear as far as the testimonials, she is the real deal off the track and is completely committed to running. And what's more she wasn't an immediate champion of all sorts as a runner. The talent was there, but like Muir she was the fast person who couldn't medal at first. I don't understand the lacking humanity nonsense. Even take a step back, Hassan is a pretty crazy specimen as an athlete. What other athletes have you seen that look like her? I don't mean this in a gross way, I mean it in a this is someone who looks like they were created specially to run.
I understand the people who push back against the racism stuff as doping apologism. I'm sure some people just want to accuse everyone fast and that happens to fall along race lines. But I have to believe a lot of this in rooted in the xenophobia because the same accusations are rarely lobby against very fast Europeans/white American athletes. I didn't see Paula Radcliffe or Seb Coe on your list. Where was Jeremy Wariner?
UltraDude wrote:
Hats off to Hassan and Kipyegon. As good as she is and as much as it pains me to say this, Laura Muir will never win a global medal. She had NO answer once the kicking started and no way she bridges that gap in the next eight weeks. I can't help but wonder how Houlihan in top form would have fared in that sprint. My guess is just ahead of Muir but well behind Hassan and Kipyegon.
Their speed in particular Hassan is no better it's the pace overall... and EPO imo.
Oh Please wrote:
Yes, as a matter of fact, that's exactly what I would expect a doper to say. What other answer would there be for a doper? "No, don't test me often?"
Someone just a couple of posts above brought up the best example, Lance. Who was tested more than any, who did say "test me all the time", who did shame and prosecute people for accusing him...and yet he admitted to doping for 20 years eventually.
In elementary school we are taught some basic mathematic fundamentals (identities). For instance, if A = B, and B = C, then A = C. This is simple logic.
So if a person runs faster than other doped people, displaying a range unheard of, then you might draw conclusion they are also a doper. It is not like a "hack" can dope and set a WR. You already have to be super elite, then dope, to get those WR. It is almost 100% certain to be the case in all major events.
You can do this if you want, but just be consistent. Every person setting WRs is doping. Never mind that technology, training and participation have made quantum leaps in some cases.
LA--yup, said, "test me every day", "I'm on my bike 8 hours a day" (trained harder), and on Ronan, +\~"keep my samples for 10 years, 20 years..".(oops)
ukathleticscoach wrote:
Their speed in particular Hassan is no better it's the pace overall... and EPO imo.
Kipyegon has better speed than Muir. Hassan does not but she also trains 7 days a week (instead of Muir's 6) and runs waaaay more than the 50-60 mpw that Muir does. Perhaps that is what allows her to be stronger at the end of fast races. Or it's all the dope because Laura Muir and her training is the peak of human performance.
Disclaimer up front: Like with all incredible non-dopers (if they exist), it would REALLY suck if Hassan is clean but still suffers from the stigma.
On the OTHER hand, I think that some who are objecting to the suspicion are ignoring the uniqueness of her RANGE in the SAME season (and month!). 10K WR and 7th fastest 1500 of all time, behind 5 known cheaters, herself, and Dibaba. My lord. Comparisons to Coe and others are ridiculous. Coe wasn't running 1:41 and 13:00 or 27:25 in the same season (or ever, I don't believe).
In the modern era, we haven't seen any man do this sort of thing. That's a lot of data. Although, I'll admit that a counter-argument could be that the women aren't as deep.
Nonetheless, given all that we've seen of doping over the decades, I think that it's VERY reasonable for folks to be suspicious of such stupendous range in the same season.
Thoughtsleader--
If it makes it easier for you, Radcliffe is exactly the same to me. I feel nothing for the athletic feat of the marathon record. Ditto for other whites I have known like Dreschler. Ditto for Asians like Junxia. Nothing, unless they are personally offensive like Makhloufi. All I will say about Farah is that I have close ties to the Somali community, and they know things. Personally. The only reason I picked the ones I did was because they are current--with the exception of Makhloufi.
I don't know anything about Coe.
Doing something like breaking a WR or winning an Olympic gold can sometimes, for me, rise to a greater level of offense because it is more significant in the pantheon of athletics, and therefore commands a greater response. Unfortunately that greater response is all to human, because I see it as an affront to an ideal that I hold, and see those people as a-holes.
You are still playing a sucker's game. What have you to say now that I have addressed your essential point?
And Hassan a perfect running machine? Have we been watching the same person? Are you kidding me? Bekele--he was a perfect running machine. Hassan isn't as biomechanically gifted as even I am. Kipyegon, now that's better.
TooMuchRange wrote:
Disclaimer up front: Like with all incredible non-dopers (if they exist), it would REALLY suck if Hassan is clean but still suffers from the stigma.
On the OTHER hand, I think that some who are objecting to the suspicion are ignoring the uniqueness of her RANGE in the SAME season (and month!). 10K WR and 7th fastest 1500 of all time, behind 5 known cheaters, herself, and Dibaba. My lord. Comparisons to Coe and others are ridiculous. Coe wasn't running 1:41 and 13:00 or 27:25 in the same season (or ever, I don't believe).
In the modern era, we haven't seen any man do this sort of thing. That's a lot of data. Although, I'll admit that a counter-argument could be that the women aren't as deep.
Nonetheless, given all that we've seen of doping over the decades, I think that it's VERY reasonable for folks to be suspicious of such stupendous range in the same season.
I will also note that if an athlete like Hassan is clean, and cared at least a bit about the inevitable accusations, and wanted to put some effort into minimizing them, she COULD choose not to cover such range in the same season. Would it be too much of an imposition and capitulation to the suspicious if she, say, ran 3:48 THIS year, and 28:30 NEXT year ???
jonesy22 wrote:
So let me get this straight. Anyone from an African country who runs too fast has to be a doper, especially if they don't look exhausted at the end of the race and/or they have good races too close together. But those conditions don't apply to white guys from Norway?
How about this. Can you provide the drug testing and dates for each and then we can draw better conclusions?
You're the same guy that promotes removing Russians from sport no matter that 99% have never tested positive. Why is that? Does benefit of doubt not apply to white people?
And as far as Wariner goes, idk. I don't know enough, I never really paid any attention to him because he was in the long shadow cast by Ackbar, and he never destroyed the suspect WR.
ukathleticscoach wrote:
UltraDude wrote:
Hats off to Hassan and Kipyegon. As good as she is and as much as it pains me to say this, Laura Muir will never win a global medal. She had NO answer once the kicking started and no way she bridges that gap in the next eight weeks. I can't help but wonder how Houlihan in top form would have fared in that sprint. My guess is just ahead of Muir but well behind Hassan and Kipyegon.
Their speed in particular Hassan is no better it's the pace overall... and EPO imo.
You'll have to explain to me how testing caught Kiprop (arguably the biggest name in the sport) but hasn't been able to catch Sifan.
TooMuchRange wrote:
In the modern era, we haven't seen any man do this sort of thing. That's a lot of data. Although, I'll admit that a counter-argument could be that the women aren't as deep.
That's kinda exactly it. Men and women are apples to oranges when it comes to this.
It's OK to be suspicious, but you and others don't know. Shelby Houlihan if healthy can probably run a wildly fast 10,000 in super-spikes and she ran 3:54.99/low 14:20s without them. Maybe she's just a slightly worse version of Hassan? Women's sports aren't as deep, so these sort of things are more possible.
igotoneforyou wrote:
I feel for Muir.
Meh.
She is just as loaded as they are.
Sprintgeezer wrote:
You are still playing a sucker's game. What have you to say now that I have addressed your essential point?
And Hassan a perfect running machine? Have we been watching the same person? Are you kidding me? Bekele--he was a perfect running machine. Hassan isn't as biomechanically gifted as even I am.
I was talking about her frame. It looks pretty ideally suited to run distances and fast.
I think your essential point is you don't feel anything when someone runs faster/with more ease than you deem is possible. I'm not sure how to address that except to feel sorry for you. Maybe you are right and every game-changing athlete is doped. You're never going to know though anyway and will just be a jaded sprintgeezer as you say.
getting bored wrote:
How about this. Can you provide the drug testing and dates for each and then we can draw better conclusions?
You're the same guy that promotes removing Russians from sport no matter that 99% have never tested positive. Why is that? Does benefit of doubt not apply to white people?
Russia had a literal state-supported doping regimen. This has been documented and exposed.
Unfortunately we do not have drug testing info on each athletes. That being said, Hassan clearly doesn't hide from the tests or biological passport (what brought down Russia btw). You can argue Dibaba, Makhloufi et al. do. Hassan who's lived in Portland, the Netherlands and now Park City, and did her altitude training in Saint Moritz, races regularly in major meets and as far as we know has never missed a test....not seeing it.
bladerunner wrote:
Iron Bars wrote:
You mistake me for someone else. Again, there is no way this is a clean performance.
Two years ago when Sifan was questioned about ped's, she responded "test me every day". Does that sound like a drug cheat? No. Also, it shows that there is nothing she can do to prove her innocence. You would think after competing for several years that they would have caught her by now. She competes frequently (unlike Ayana and Dibaba), lives in the U.S. where she can't hide from the testors, and has had 3 different coaches who you have to think would have knowledge of her drug use. She's a beautiful human being that is talented beyond belief.
Were you literally born yesterday?
Lol is this a joke? so you are saying if she (or anyone like her) is clean, they should intentionally underperform their capabilities just to appease the suspicions of skeptics like you? Give me a break. For her and anyone else, I would sincerely hope they try to maximize their ability and accomplish great things on the tracks, including both fast times and incredible range. Btw, the range displayed this week is nothing new - she won the 1500 and 10k at the world championships, both were just as amazing performances.