Furthermore, it has been shown that his claims that he reached the summit in Everest are pure fiction. He had no tracking material or ways to show that he did summit Everest in the times that he claimed. The Everest episode has discredited him greatly and casts doubt on everything else he claims to have done unfortunately for him.
Questioning the ability of one of the most accomplished mountain runners ever because he is not fast on a road 10K is like saying that Kipkoge is a fraud because he decides to have fun in a 400m dash and runs 50 seconds.
Good for KJ having fun competing in a different sport, but who cares if he is smoked by Jakob?
I also do not find suspicious his claim to have run sub 30 after a VK. He mentions that he jogged down easy, meaning that there was probably 30min to one hour between the two efforts. Also, we do not know what kind of shape he was in these two attempts, what course was he running and how accurate was the distance. These are just training/fun runs it would be silly trying to read much into these times.
Personally I think this whole "What can I do on flat?" experiment with Kilian is stupid and not very interesting. It's like when McGregor boxed Mayweather, they are completely different sports with different skillsets. I think if Kipchoge went to Sierre Zinal, Kilian would beat him. Because that is Kilian's sport. I don't really get why he's spending so much time on this.
As a fan of both road and ultra running, I'd much rather see him toe'ing the lines of big mountain and ultra races again. It feels like he's been ducking the long stuff since Francois beat him at UTMB in 2017 and now he's just coming up with reasons to hide out doing other stuff.
I care about as much about all this as I would about how hard of a slap shot Lebron James has.
joeyg1116 wrote:
Personally I think this whole "What can I do on flat?" experiment with Kilian is stupid and not very interesting. It's like when McGregor boxed Mayweather, they are completely different sports with different skillsets. I think if Kipchoge went to Sierre Zinal, Kilian would beat him. Because that is Kilian's sport. I don't really get why he's spending so much time on this.
As a fan of both road and ultra running, I'd much rather see him toe'ing the lines of big mountain and ultra races again. It feels like he's been ducking the long stuff since Francois beat him at UTMB in 2017 and now he's just coming up with reasons to hide out doing other stuff.
I care about as much about all this as I would about how hard of a slap shot Lebron James has.
No denying that he dominates his little fringe niche. But now we have the real truth about where he ranks amongst runners. Sub-elite, able to beat most women, 90 seconds slower than the best high schoolers. Can we please stop with all the nonsense that he is a 4:10 miler and a 2:10 marathoner? Can we please stop with the nonsense that he does 29:40 in a workout, and that he does 5x5000 in 15min?
He's a good runner, not elite. He can beat the snot out of the 50 or so people in his sport, and can be beat by thousands of men, women and children in road racing.
Dos Braveys wrote:
joeyg1116 wrote:
Personally I think this whole "What can I do on flat?" experiment with Kilian is stupid and not very interesting. It's like when McGregor boxed Mayweather, they are completely different sports with different skillsets. I think if Kipchoge went to Sierre Zinal, Kilian would beat him. Because that is Kilian's sport. I don't really get why he's spending so much time on this.
As a fan of both road and ultra running, I'd much rather see him toe'ing the lines of big mountain and ultra races again. It feels like he's been ducking the long stuff since Francois beat him at UTMB in 2017 and now he's just coming up with reasons to hide out doing other stuff.
I care about as much about all this as I would about how hard of a slap shot Lebron James has.
No denying that he dominates his little fringe niche. But now we have the real truth about where he ranks amongst runners. Sub-elite, able to beat most women, 90 seconds slower than the best high schoolers. Can we please stop with all the nonsense that he is a 4:10 miler and a 2:10 marathoner? Can we please stop with the nonsense that he does 29:40 in a workout, and that he does 5x5000 in 15min?
He's a good runner, not elite. He can beat the snot out of the 50 or so people in his sport, and can be beat by thousands of men, women and children in road racing.
You are on the right track but you are still prone to exaggeration.
I just watched the interview following the Norwegian race and KJ complained about a slight muscle injury. OK if we take into account that injury being relevant or true and the difficulty of the course I would say that his best potential at 10 km would be about 29:00-29:30 minutes which is still a very honorable time. However, seeing the children can scalp him is stretching it too far. Furthermore, I think KJ trained specifically for track and road then he could be even faster maybe around 2830 for 10 km and around 212 to 215 for the marathon. That would take specificity for about 1 to 2 years. He has the body shape and bio mechanics to run those times I believe.
Ghost1 wrote:
Dos Braveys wrote:
No denying that he dominates his little fringe niche. But now we have the real truth about where he ranks amongst runners. Sub-elite, able to beat most women, 90 seconds slower than the best high schoolers. Can we please stop with all the nonsense that he is a 4:10 miler and a 2:10 marathoner? Can we please stop with the nonsense that he does 29:40 in a workout, and that he does 5x5000 in 15min?
He's a good runner, not elite. He can beat the snot out of the 50 or so people in his sport, and can be beat by thousands of men, women and children in road racing.
You are on the right track but you are still prone to exaggeration.
I just watched the interview following the Norwegian race and KJ complained about a slight muscle injury. OK if we take into account that injury being relevant or true and the difficulty of the course I would say that his best potential at 10 km would be about 29:00-29:30 minutes which is still a very honorable time. However, seeing the children can scalp him is stretching it too far. Furthermore, I think KJ trained specifically for track and road then he could be even faster maybe around 2830 for 10 km and around 212 to 215 for the marathon. That would take specificity for about 1 to 2 years. He has the body shape and bio mechanics to run those times I believe.
Some typos in last post: should read -« saying that children could scalp KJ is stretching it too far. Furthermore, I think that if KG trained specifically for track and road” etc...
Ghost1 wrote:
Dos Braveys wrote:
No denying that he dominates his little fringe niche. But now we have the real truth about where he ranks amongst runners. Sub-elite, able to beat most women, 90 seconds slower than the best high schoolers. Can we please stop with all the nonsense that he is a 4:10 miler and a 2:10 marathoner? Can we please stop with the nonsense that he does 29:40 in a workout, and that he does 5x5000 in 15min?
He's a good runner, not elite. He can beat the snot out of the 50 or so people in his sport, and can be beat by thousands of men, women and children in road racing.
You are on the right track but you are still prone to exaggeration.
However, seeing the children can scalp him is stretching it too far.
US High School List
28:32.7 Rudy Chapa (Hammond, Indiana) 1976
28:55.0 Eric Hulst (Laguna Beach, California) 1976
29:06.8 *Bill McChesney (South, Eugene, Oregon) 1976
29:09.4 ————Chapa 1976
29:09.56 Galen Rupp (Central Catholic, Portland, Oregon) 2004
29:11.0 ————*Chapa 1975
29:11.1 ————*Hulst 1975
29:17.6 Gerry Lindgren (Rogers, Spokane, Washington) 1964
29:27.2 ————**McChesney 1975
29:30.6 ————Hulst 1976
13:37.91 Galen Rupp (Central Catholic, Portland, Oregon) 2004
13:44.0 Gerry Lindgren (Rogers, Spokane, Washington) 1964
13:44.70 Dathan Ritzenhein (Rockford, Michigan) 2001
13:50.55 Nico Young (Newbury Park, California) 2020
13:51.69 ————Ritzenhein 2001
13:52.85 ————Rupp 2004
13:52.8 Steve Prefontaine (Marshfield, Coos Bay, Oregon) 1969
13:55.32 ————Rupp 2004
13:55.65 John Zishka (Lancaster, Ohio) 1980
13:55.96 Chris Derrick (Neuqua Valley, Naperville, Illinois) 2008
Imagine how many hundreds of children in East Africa can beat those times and thus KJ.
5000 Meters
14:06.62 Letesenbet Gidey (Ethiopia) 10/07/20
14:11.15 Tirunesh Dibaba (Ethiopia) 6/06/08
14:12.59 Almaz Ayana (Ethiopia) 6/02/16
14:12.88 Meseret Defar (Ethiopia) 7/22/08
14:14.32 ————Ayana 5/17/15
14:15.41 Genzebe Dibaba (Ethiopia) 7/04/15
14:16.31 ————Ayana 5/22/16
14:16.63 ————Defar 6/15/07
14:18.37 Hellen Obiri (Kenya) 6/08/17
14:18.86i ————G. Dibaba 2/19/15
14:20.68 Agnes Tirop (Kenya) 7/21/19
14:20.87 Vivian Cheruiyot (Kenya) 7/29/11
14:22.12 Sifan Hassan (Netherlands) 7/21/19
14:23.33 Senbere Teferi (Ethiopia) 7/13/18
10,000 METERS
29:17.45 Almaz Ayana (Ethiopia) 8/12/16
29:31.78 Junxia Wang (China) 9/08/93
29:32.53 Vivian Cheruiyot (Kenya) 8/12/16
29:36.67 Sifan Hassan (Netherlands) 10/10/20
29:42.56 Tirunesh Dibaba (Ethiopia) 8/12/16
29:53.51 Alice Nawowuna (Kenya) 8/12/16
29:53.80 Meselech Melkamu (Ethiopia) 6/14/09
29:54.66 ————Dibaba 8/15/08
29:59.20 Meseret Defar (Ethiopia) 7/11/09
Semantics dilemma. For me the definition of children is humans under the age of 14 but I suppose you’re technically right in that they are minors up to the age of 18, so technically children. Now I suspect there are some children under the age of 14 in Ethiopia and in Kenya who might run that fast, sub 30 for 10km.
I can’t prove this, though any visitor to Eldoret/Iten in Kenya, will have seen the amazing potential of Rift kids at a young age running fast for long stretches some of them who have no formal training in athletics.
Hey Sage, we're all still waiting for you to put this knowledge to good use and show how fast road/track guys can dominate at the 100 mile distance. :) Would be nice if people would drop the 'small sample size' argument about the 100 mile distance. We've been hearing this for at least a decade now and in that time ultra distance racing has grown in popularity considerably. Yet, other than Walmsley at WSER, the big 100 mile races are still dominated by more pure mountain ultra guys. So far, the ladies are the only ones showing how its done. Krar probably came the closest as a pure road/track/xc guy that crossed over and dominated but has struggled to stay healthy. The promise of Walmsley hasn't really panned out yet. I agree Kilians SZ CR is very impressive but I think what you are overlooking about Kilian is the range of races he participates in throughout the year. His 'slower' performances at UTMB have been during years where he has been very active with shorter intense stuff mixed in. Most other guys that do well at UTMB are not racing VK's and packing their schedule the way he does. It seems obvious that would have a somewhat detrimental effect at the really long stuff. Anyway, I guess any day now some elite road/track guy is guying to show us all how its done and prove fitness is fitness and dominate the 100+ mile races just as we've been hearing about for so long now.
S. Canaday wrote:
My general answer: Small sample size.
Yes, his Hardrock and UTMB wins (again also really not that technical courses) shows excellent "long mountain range" as a lot of that requires powerhiking on the climbs (partly because of the altitude and the sheer volume of doing over 30,000' of vert in one push....and the % grade of the climbs) keep in mind his UTMB winning times are not the fastest (and yes, I realize there have been a lot of course variations there and the weather and nature of the race influences times a lot!).
Hardrock is very niche and a very small sample size. Not very many people (especially great road runners) even get the chance to attempt the course as part of the race because it is basically impossible to get into! No doubt Kilian could go faster there if he had some competition, but I'd still argue his CR at Sierre-Zinal is a much better competitive performance.
Sierre-Zinal gets the 2:11 marathoner guys, has decades of history, and has thousands of runners in it each year. It is THE iconic mountain race. For him to run basically an "untouchable" CR there is a way better performance than anything else I can think of that he has done. Maybe someone else can add to this?
But again it comes down to the numbers with the competitive history and relative performances. So many MUT events are quite niche and small scale events that are super obscure with not much depth in competitiion (at least compared to large scale road races or track and xc running at the NCAA/pro level). There are a lot of barriers to entry. A lot of great East African road runners (who in my mind could crush some mountain-ultra-trail events) don't even know they can make money from this sport!
Sure the 2:15 guy loses to the 2:25 guy at UTMB sometimes (or even at Sierre-Zinal), but generally performances correlate very closely to marathon times ....just like fast 10km times often correlate very well to good marathon times.
igotoneforyou wrote:
Thanks for the reply, Sage. Very good points. But, is it debatable that his best performances have come at less technical races like S-Z? (I mean, yes, that's a great one of course...but what about his Hard Rock runs, for example?). I do believe he is fast, and probably under-performed in the 10km, but he is legendary on mut while being only faster than average on a road...this is a huge difference. It's more than just 'distance running' or the heart-lung thing. I agree good fitness can only help you on the trails, but there is no denying that skillful running on technical stuff, which Kilian is legendary at, is a different skill compared to a road run, requiring differences in balance, proprioception, the ability to run 'off rhythm' (though he seems to keep in rhythm on technical stuff, at least compared to me ?), trail-reading skills, etc.
I know you're an all surface guy, but don't you also see variations in your relative positions across disciplines, or have strengths or weaknesses related to different styles of running?
I guess my point is: I respect Kilian a ton but I'm not surprised his 10km wasnt close to Olympic fast. Even if he wasn't injured or whatever. Because, in the end, he offers more than just the hearts and lungs.
I think the only thing that would convince me otherwise would be to see a bunch of track/road guys (say, like Mo Farah, or, just pick any track star) show up at a tough high level trail race and dominate on minimal trail training. Why don't we see this happen if the fitness transfers over so well? Is it really only the $?
Thanks again!
Ghost1 wrote:
Semantics dilemma. For me the definition of children is humans under the age of 14 but I suppose you’re technically right in that they are minors up to the age of 18, so technically children.
Southern DAs charge anyone older than 7 as an adult.
joeyg1116 wrote:
Personally I think this whole "What can I do on flat?" experiment with Kilian is stupid and not very interesting. It's like when McGregor boxed Mayweather, they are completely different sports with different skillsets. I think if Kipchoge went to Sierre Zinal, Kilian would beat him. Because that is Kilian's sport. I don't really get why he's spending so much time on this.
As a fan of both road and ultra running, I'd much rather see him toe'ing the lines of big mountain and ultra races again. It feels like he's been ducking the long stuff since Francois beat him at UTMB in 2017 and now he's just coming up with reasons to hide out doing other stuff.
I care about as much about all this as I would about how hard of a slap shot Lebron James has.
I mostly agree but dont get what you're talking about him 'ducking' the long stuff. In 2018 he returned to UTMB and ended up having to DNF. In 2019 he became a father and decided to have a reduced schedule to spend time with this family. In 2020 (the current year) there is a pandemic. But sure, he's 'ducking the long stuff', ok.
Such a weird thread. Jacob runs 35 min. Filip runs 29:03. Yet somehow Kilian going 29:59 indicates he can be crushed by high schoolers. Maybe we should start a Jacob and Filip are FINISHED thread.
See I don't consider them "completely different sports"....I consider it all just "distance running". Do people consider cross country at 10km a different sport than a 10km track? Some might I guess. It certainly shows individual runners strengths and weaknesses. For example I was way more competitive at xc in high school and college compared to anything on the track. Now I agree when you get into the realm of some of those really technical Sky Running (or even a Golden Trail Series race like Ring of Steall) it becomes more like a "different sport" and it is more like mountain climbing. I used to joke that they should call it "Sky climbing" rather than "Sky Running" because I was reduced to a power-hike and using my hands/arms on some technical steep sections....or if there are cliffs you can fall off and die (which there are in some of these races!). For sure the class 3 mountain scrambles and the really technical races (and Kilian's other mountain adventures) are like a "different sport." I'll admit to that. And those are definitely not my cup of tea. Kilian loves that stuff. But a course like Sierre-Zinal or Pikes Peak isn't radically different from a super hilly cross country race. I mean sure, they have 7000' of climbing (a lot!), but it is fairly smooth and always "runnable" trail running and they are events in the 2-4 hour range only. Again, high correlation to road marathon time and fitness. I mean if you have the endurance, the heart and lung power and the aerobic fitness that goes a long way. Then all you need is the musculature in the legs to handle the vertical change and proper fueling/hydration....but to do so most efficently (and not fall) is the trick! So yes, a lot of faster marathon runners and 10km runners have transitioned quite well to Sierre-Zinal. Would Kipchoge beat Kilian at Sierre-Zinal? I think he definitely could (and probably would be favored to if he did some specific hill training for a few months). Just like I think a guy like Kipchoge could win UTMB and Western States. Although I'd say it would be much more easy for him to crush Western States compared to UTMB given the radical course differences and climates. UTMB throws off fast marathon road runners because you have to powerhike a lot and carry a 3-4lb pack of required gear basically and the night running in changing alpine weather conditions adds more unpredictable variables (along with the 19 + hour duration). Some could call a mountain ultra a 100-miles a "different sport" for sure. 100-miles on a flat course or track would be very specific to road marathoning though. Again though, some people have a natural talent for being "good hill runners" (aka "good climbers") and that can just come naturally. There are sub 2:10 marathoners out there that could be climbing monsters and might not even know it?! Others really might not be able to handle the hills very well at all though....and never will. The learning curve is more about being able to fuel and hydrate and wear proper trail shoes and pace yourself accordingly. Sure, some technical downhills can be learned, but a lot of it is innate also (or comes from mastering another sport that is related like Skimo). At the top end you're always fighting at the margins...but often things in mountain races can go exponential. The name of the game is Variable Running Economy. Some transition better, others don't.
joeyg1116 wrote:
Personally I think this whole "What can I do on flat?" experiment with Kilian is stupid and not very interesting. It's like when McGregor boxed Mayweather, they are completely different sports with different skillsets. I think if Kipchoge went to Sierre Zinal, Kilian would beat him. Because that is Kilian's sport. I don't really get why he's spending so much time on this.
As a fan of both road and ultra running, I'd much rather see him toe'ing the lines of big mountain and ultra races again. It feels like he's been ducking the long stuff since Francois beat him at UTMB in 2017 and now he's just coming up with reasons to hide out doing other stuff.
I care about as much about all this as I would about how hard of a slap shot Lebron James has.
Mountain hiker laces up some shoes and runs a sub 30 10km with one leg blown apart with injury. Gets ripped on Letsun ...
A guy like like Kipchoge. Lol
Let’s take possibly the greatest runner of all time and see if he’s good at running. Why are we comparing 1% of the 1%.. Kipchoge is the exception. The sad thing is, even then it’s not even a guarantee he could beat him. Although most would believe that to be the case, myself included. If the race was on anything remotely technical Kipchoge couldn’t hold his jock strap.
letsripdotcom wrote:
Mountain hiker laces up some shoes and runs a sub 30 10km with one leg blown apart with injury. Gets ripped on Letsun ...
Give me a break. Have you seen a leg blown apart? He started making injury excuses before the race, his fan base seems to really need that for some reason, which was odd. i thought it showed nervousness, which is fine. During his post race interview he dismissed being injured, was vague and said he just felt something in his tibia, but not serious. His real problem, as stated by him, was that he had a hard time running with other people so close etc., which was weird as he also said it made him run faster, so maybe a pacing issue due to "inexperience", but how much had this guy raced in his life and suddenly he doesn't know how to pace? Seems weak to me. It should be noted also that he said the first km was downhill which is why it was fast. The guy does love running downhill.
He trained for 6 months for this. His leg was not "blown apart" by injury and was not injured really at all, he had a little issue with his tibia and who races feeling 100%? There's always a little something. This did not effect his performance.
He ran 29:59. That's his PB. It's not terrible. I don't know why there has to be reasons or excuses or explanations - it's not a bad time. Look how much road training Sage does, in his youth, and specifically for an OTQ and his last 10k race he ran a 32:36. Just accept that's where his current 10k fitness is which seems pretty good for a guy who doesn't normally run on the road.
I don't really understand what point you are trying to make with your writing? But to clarify - When I say a "guy like Kipchoge" I basically mean "any sub 2:08 marathoner". Maybe I should have just said an "elite road marathoner at the Olympic podium level". There's a very good chance that a guy who is "only a 2:07" marathoner might be a much better hill climber than Kipchoge at the start of Sierre-Zinal when the trail hits 20-30% uphill grade. But in general they are all going to have a lot of advantages over the 2:20-2:25 marathon "mountain specialist" guy because their Variable Running Economy and power output at Lactate Threshold has more "wiggle room" (to be inefficient on the uphills). Like I said though, sometimes the 2:20 guy beats the 2:10 guy in these mountain races....and sometimes at a race like UTMB the 2:30 guy beats the 2:15 guy! I still think a male runner can win UTMB off of "only" a 2:25-2:20 marathon PR. Kilian Jornet has a recorded Vo2max of around 88-90 (supposedly). Well if the Specific Running Economy isn't there (i.e. on a flat road) that means nothing in terms of actual times and race performances. He obviously shows his strengths (and more of that competitive Vo2max) a lot more in the mountains.... Would Kilian run 2:20 + or sub 2:15 in the marathon on a flat road? I don't know! Would Kipchoge run a new CR of 2:20 and beat Kilian by 5-minutes at Sierre-Zinal? I don't know! This is all speculation.
T-shirt wrote:
A guy like like Kipchoge. Lol
Let’s take possibly the greatest runner of all time and see if he’s good at running. Why are we comparing 1% of the 1%.. Kipchoge is the exception. The sad thing is, even then it’s not even a guarantee he could beat him. Although most would believe that to be the case, myself included. If the race was on anything remotely technical Kipchoge couldn’t hold his jock strap.
If Kilian runs fast - he's a doper.
If Kilian runs not so fast - he's overrated.
After all he's achieved in sports, he gets to do whatever the hell he wants, try roads, track, crossfit, who cares. And you guys get to criticize him behind your keyboards, which is all you're good for.
S. Canaday wrote:
See I don't consider them "completely different sports"....I consider it all just "distance running".
Yes!!! Geez, KJ is a sub-elite distance runner. He can beat the few guys who show up at MUTs and rock runs and whatever, but he's a turkey trot caliber guy talent-wise. A long time ago, I ran with Filber Bayi in a brutal high altitude, super rocky, 20 mile trail race near Lake City, Colorado. Bayi was a world record breaker in the mile and 1500, and an Olympic medalist in the steeplechase. He was a great distance runner who wasn't scared to run in any kind of event. John Walker was one of the best cross country runners in the world. Steve Ovett was one of the best cross country runners in the world. Seb Coe ran crazy cross country races in Italy. Shorter was undefeated at cross country for years and trained on lots of high altitude trails. You think that those guys couldn't gear up after a few months and smash a sub-elite KJ in any kind of race? Kipchoge would beat KJ by hours. It is simply the case of elites are better than sub-elites.