Yes? And how's that working out for you?
You got your answers. Do or don't.
Yes? And how's that working out for you?
You got your answers. Do or don't.
david45 wrote:
Tin foil wrote:
I don't know what to tell you, I only ever gone that slow on very steep uphills...
When I started running I was almost twice your age and totally sedentary, I soon was running 4 hilly miles, 3 times per week, had ITBS for months, and still I was faster than you are right now. And I've always been just above average in sports.
You're 18, you should be able to recover like an SOB. Pick up the pace, if all you do is run slow. If you're not comfortable deciding for yourself how far, how fast, and how often, buy Daniels' Running Formula and start with one of the introductory running plans.
One can run much faster than you do without organized training, but if that doesn't suit you then Daniels' book is a solid choice.
And don't be a troll. If you ask for advice don't challenge every answer. At some point, you have to do the work and see for yourself. Spending the day here won't make you faster.
Still, many people posted writings here talking about you shouldn't go too hard on easy runs because of the production of lactate.
The only one in your household producing anything that sounds like lactate is your mom.
You don't train hard, realistically have never gone lactic, and complain about the fact that you aren't getting better. How about you TRY.
Swerving wrote:
david45 wrote:
Still, many people posted writings here talking about you shouldn't go too hard on easy runs because of the production of lactate.
The only one in your household producing anything that sounds like lactate is your mom.
You don't train hard, realistically have never gone lactic, and complain about the fact that you aren't getting better. How about you TRY.
I am just scared of getting injured again.
david45 wrote:
Selective Listening wrote:
I don't know, I am not your coach. I would follow the persons advice who had his brother run with him. I wouldn't do it every day. You're just not at that level.
But I have already been running for over a year at this point.
You started running July last year, but was injured and didn't run for half that time, so that's not a lot of miles in your legs. I ran more in my first two months (9 miles a day, remember) as a beginner than you have run in your lifetime.
You've seen my advice before. It's to run a whole lot more easy miles for a while, which will make your legs stronger, including your bones, so they'll be more resistant to stress fractures. Your legs are already a lot more resistant to stress fractures now than they were a year ago because of your mileage. Swerving's advice in the other thread was the same thing I did as a beginner, and I was injury-proof until I hit middle age. (No, I'm not Swerving.)
- Lots of time on feet to gain fitness and leg/bone strength that you didn't have from being sedentary and playing video games all your life. Maybe 90 minutes is good, maybe not. Why don't you give it a try once. Listen to your body and make adjustments. Maybe your legs hurt before you get to 90 minutes. Then stop at that point and walk home. Don't do 90 minutes just so you can come back and blame Swerving for your problems. Run 7 days a week unless your body tells you you need a day off. Adding time to your runs per weeks will help, whether that's adding time one day a week or all 7 days.
- Mostly easy effort because the stress of easy runs, the actual pounds per square inch loaded into your legs/bones is less than in hard runs. When you add too much stress when the bones are weak, like when you started last year, you get stress factures. When you stress at a lower level that doesn't break the bones, that will gradually increase your bone density, so you'll be more resistant to injury from faster runs in the future.
- Since you are not as fragile as you were last year, include some faster running like the tempos you are doing.
Swerving wrote:
david45 wrote:
People in r/running think you are stupid
People on Letsrun think you are stupid. Did you just consult r/running with my advice? That must have been a quick response.
Have you ever tried something like what I'm suggesting? It works.
this guy is either a fucking retard or mentally challenged. I don't care if you are going to flame me for using the term loosely. No idea why people spent actual time typing long answers when he is just gonna think that he is always right.
donuts wrote:
david45 wrote:
But I have already been running for over a year at this point.
You started running July last year, but was injured and didn't run for half that time, so that's not a lot of miles in your legs. I ran more in my first two months (9 miles a day, remember) as a beginner than you have run in your lifetime.
You've seen my advice before. It's to run a whole lot more easy miles for a while, which will make your legs stronger, including your bones, so they'll be more resistant to stress fractures. Your legs are already a lot more resistant to stress fractures now than they were a year ago because of your mileage. Swerving's advice in the other thread was the same thing I did as a beginner, and I was injury-proof until I hit middle age. (No, I'm not Swerving.)
- Lots of time on feet to gain fitness and leg/bone strength that you didn't have from being sedentary and playing video games all your life. Maybe 90 minutes is good, maybe not. Why don't you give it a try once. Listen to your body and make adjustments. Maybe your legs hurt before you get to 90 minutes. Then stop at that point and walk home. Don't do 90 minutes just so you can come back and blame Swerving for your problems. Run 7 days a week unless your body tells you you need a day off. Adding time to your runs per weeks will help, whether that's adding time one day a week or all 7 days.
- Mostly easy effort because the stress of easy runs, the actual pounds per square inch loaded into your legs/bones is less than in hard runs. When you add too much stress when the bones are weak, like when you started last year, you get stress factures. When you stress at a lower level that doesn't break the bones, that will gradually increase your bone density, so you'll be more resistant to injury from faster runs in the future.
- Since you are not as fragile as you were last year, include some faster running like the tempos you are doing.
Swerving wrote:
People on Letsrun think you are stupid. Did you just consult r/running with my advice? That must have been a quick response.
Have you ever tried something like what I'm suggesting? It works.
Thank you for your advice.
david45 wrote:
Still, many people posted writings here talking about you shouldn't go too hard on easy runs because of the production of lactate.
Context here is key. You should keep easy runs easy.
But you should also add more intense workouts, like threshold runs for STAMINA.
If you are running these at 8:30-8:50 (your predicted marathon pace), you should not be concerned with lactate production.
So a threshold day would be followed, for example, by two EASY days. When they EASY days are EASY, you allow recovery. You don't get faster from the workouts, but from the recovery days that follow the workouts. When you push EASY days too hard, you are not allowing recovery, which leads to injury.
Long Time Lurker wrote:
Well since your other thread regarding training response got deleted, i'll tread lightly around the issue.
It's still there -- I suspect a lot of inflammatory posts were deleted, and the last page disappeared.
Your cache is jumping to a page that doesn't exist:
https://www.letsrun.com/forum/flat_read.php?thread=10142296&page=7rekrunner wrote:
david45 wrote:
Except I have been running for over a year, and despite increase in mileage, I am not improving
I forgot Step #0. Do you have the right mindset to improve? There is a lot of self-doubt coming across in your posts. You act like you've tried everything, and nothing has worked. Don't let a defeatist mindset prevent you from trying anything that might let you discover what kind of training works.
If running for a year hasn't worked, you have to change something. How you change depends on how you answer questions about yourself. (That's usually the role of an experienced coach).
What have you learned about yourself in that year?
Did you read the primer I linked above?
Can you answer some of the questions in Step #5 about yourself?
Read section #4. Which of the 12 Key workouts make you feel good, and which seem too tough?
A year is not a long time, and if you were already injured, you probably didn't get your mileage up that high.
What is your goal? If it is just to have a good time and find camaraderie, find a local Hash House Harriers and join them.
What is your strategy going to be to achieve that goal? (Again, that's where an experienced coach helps).
If you had run in cross country in high school, typically these kids can run around 40 miles a week, and eventually, over the course of years, might ramp their mileage up to 60 miles a week or 75 miles a week by senior year.
If you are not running 40 miles a week after one year, don't talk like you've "been there, done that". If you are, then it is time add some intensity, and/or ramp up to 60.
Referring to the primer, for a beginner, I would start with ENDURANCE and SPRINT workouts, gradually building up ENDURANCE by increasing the weekly mileage, while using a low volume of SPRINT workouts for developing good form at high speeds. Once I'm happy with weekly volume, I would introduce STAMINA workouts. So for the 6:51 miler, this might at first be a workout like a 45 minute steady state run at marathon pace (8:51). And last would be SPEED workouts. The next year might repeat this cycle, but with bigger numbers. Of course if there are races you want to do, I would look for adaptations to accommodate the races with realistic goals.
If you give it the real college try, for a few years, and you still genuinely don't improve, you may have to rethink your goals, accepting that you may be this rare non-responder to training, and decide if your love for running means love for running fast, or just love for running.
Given all of the struggle and non-improvement I am having, I fear I am the rare non-responder to training.
”Im slow, what should I do?”
”Run more and run faster sometimes”
”But I'm afraid to get injure”
This back and forth is occupying 30% of this board it feels like. Dear lord, just try to run more and see what happens, maybe you are too injury probe to be able to handle more then whatever you are running now or maybe you are one in 10000000 people that don't respond at all to training, if that turns out to be the case than you know and can try something else. Either way you seriously need to stop spamming this board and arguing with the (surprisingly many) people trying to give you advice.
maybe cause you're a racist trash? try being kind to everyone and maybe it will change things
david45 wrote:
Given all of the struggle and non-improvement I am having, I fear I am the rare non-responder to training.
Nope. Didn't you say 8:06 was your best mile at some point? Then 7:30, (from memory maybe 7:2x?), and 6:51?
By the way, there is something called gradient adjusted pace (GAP) that takes into account how much climbing(and sometimes descending) there is in a run. GAP is what the effort is "worth" on flat ground. Strava does this, but not for free accounts anymore.
You can do a simple GAP calculation on your own, just adjusting for the climbs (assuming downhills don't gain you much is a good enough approximation if you aren't ripping them and racing)
GAP = time / (distance + climb*5)
distance and climb are in the same units.
If your 50 minute run is 4.4 miles, that's 11:22 pace. But let's say that run had a total climb of 528 feet (0.1 mile). Then your GAP would be 50/(4.4+0.1*5)= 10.2 or 10:12 GAP.
Here's a discussion about the climb*5 factor, though mostly related to orienteering (running through woods)
https://www.attackpoint.org/discussionthread.jsp/message_1186275
https://medium.com/strava-engineering/an-improved-gap-model-8b07ae8886c3
I'm afraid you're just wasting your time and effort donuts.. he mentioned that he has been running loops around his 15m backyard the past few months. so unless his house is built on the side of the mountain, there is no hill.
david45 wrote:
Over the year of training, I realize I am extremely prone to injury and I seem to be a slow responder to any form of training. I am not sure I am better at speed or distance as I feel I suck equally at both. As for workouts, I struggle with hill workouts, tempo runs, fartleks, and goal pace. I only do okay with a little bit of speed workouts, but speed workouts easily set me on a path to injury. My goal is to become a fast runner in the 5k.
...
I have been running for 50 minutes six days per week at a pace of 11 minute per mile. Any faster, then I am no longer running at an easy pace.
Now we are making progess. First step is step 0 - your mindset. If you are mentally committed, you still have several years to go before you give up in frustration.
But if this is where you are mentally, and you truly respond slowly, or not at all, to virtually most forms of training, limited by injury, this defines your limits, and it's time to shape realistic goals, like just getting to be the best you can be.
If SPEED workouts lead to injury, I recommend avoiding SPEED workouts for now. In any case, you are not ready for it. Commit to avoiding SPEED workouts for 1 year.
This leaves (see the primer), ENDURANCE, STAMINA, and SPRINT workouts.
Another kind of workout, designed at building strength and injury prevention, is Lydiard's Hill Training. Once you've built up ENDURANCE, these are jumping, hopping, and bounding exercises designed to build explosive strength, and range of motion which should help avoid injury.
If running too much truly causes injury, you could replace easy days with cycling or swimming.
The next first step is to stop talking like EASY PACE is something that exists. If someone asks you your EASY PACE, you should be able to say "I don't know because I don't time EASY PACE. EASY is an EFFORT".
If you are running 6 days a week for 50 minutes at 11:00 pace, that is 27 miles a week. Let's start with that.
You need to build a strategy to help define intermittent milestones, and ensure adequate increase of stimulus with adequate recovery. A big part of that strategy is personal feedback that may slightly, or radically, alter the original plan.
I would avoid timing your runs over distance, as that seems to be a source of frustration. You should frame your runs as time spent at an effort. Pick a place to run where you don't know any distances, like trails in a park or the woods.
Define different levels of efforts for your workouts. For example, assuming 200 Max HR:
EASY might be 145-150.
STAMINA might be 160-165.
5K RACE GOAL might be 170-175.
If you have been doing that for a while, your body has already adapted to that, and it no longer stimulates you to improve -- you will stagnate. You need to bump that up to a new level. If you are injury prone, you need to do that gradually. This might mean that your days become 60 minutes, one of your EASY DAYS becomes STAMINA (threshold), and another one becomes longer, like 75 minutes. Do this gradually, over 6 weeks or 3 months. After 6 weeks, you might turn one of your EASY days into 30 minutes EASY, followed by a session of 4x 10 seconds all out SPRINT, with 3 minutes full recovery in between. Gradually this can become 6 and 8. These are not high volume and recovery intervals are long, so they are good for improving form and mechanics, without incurring the need for high recovery.
As it is effort based, if your paces become faster, mileage will increase naturally without increased effort. Once you adapt to the new level, you will need to repeat the cycle to increase your workload.
You might repeat the same 3 months cycle, but introduce a second STAMINA day. One might be STEADY STATE - a 45 minute run at 160 bpm. The other might be split into repetitions, like 10 minute warmup followed by 3x8 minutes at 165 with 8-10 minutes EASY in between.
Or you might try a Lydiard approach for the next 4-6 weeks where you introduce his HILL PHASE to help build explosive strength and range of motion.
Then repeat the 3 month cycle described above.
After 6-9 months, maybe you are running 35-40 miles a week, but you don't know because you are not timing your distances, because you are running by time spent at defined efforts.
I stretched it out to 6-9 months, and kept the efforts LOW, because of your fear of injury, but this buildup could have been as short as 6-12 weeks.
Now you might turn one of these STAMINA days into a RACE specific day. You don't know your RACE PACE goal yet, because we specified it above as an effort. McMillan defines 5K for a 6:51 miler at 23:47. Let's be optimistic and say 20 minutes is the hypothetical goal. So you might turn one of your STAMINA sessions into a 3x5 minute at RACE GOAL effort, with 3-5 minute partial recovery in between, eventually changing it to 4x5 minutes, then 3x7 minutes, then 2x10 minutes, then race simulation time trials. For time trials, you might do 4K time trials at a higher effort if you want to run race pace faster, and 6K time trials if you want run near race pace for longer.
This is one conservative approach you might take to run a decent 5K next spring.
If you still haven't improved after 1 year that looks like that (which would surprise me), we still have SPEED workouts we haven't done yet, and you still an expand your weekly mileage to 60 or 75 miles per week. I would map out another year, starting with 4-6 weeks of off-season ENDURANCE recovery, another ENDURANCE/STAMINA buildup, lengthening the STAMINA days, and LONG days, and then introduce SPEED workouts.
If this leads to injuries, or you still don't improve after two more years of increasing stimulus, I think it is time to enjoy running for the sake of running, and accept who you are. You can still keep repeating this approach that allows you to run at higher efforts for longer, and "que sera, sera".
david45 wrote:
Given all of the struggle and non-improvement I am having, I fear I am the rare non-responder to training.
I fear your fear is holding you back. I'm not sure you've tried long enough to know your physical limits, but I am sure that mentally you are not in the right place to allow your running to flourish.
Ahead of the Curve wrote:
david45 wrote:
Shouldn't running downhill cancel out any timed gained by running uphill?
This is a 6th grade math problem. David runs 5 mph on flat ground. Running uphill he goes 1 mph slower. Running down the same hill David goes 1 mph faster! David runs 5 miles away from his house uphill turns around and runs 5 miles downhill back home. The Brojos have David scheduled to start posting stupid running questions at 8pm. If he leaves for his run at 6pm will he be home in time?
I totally agree the BroJos pay this doofus to post stupid questions for clicks.
Yet, Morans keep biting. (yes, that includes me)
You are an a***ole if you attack david for being "racist" or his religious and cultural beliefs.
Not very flat.
Living near the coast in the Mid Atlantic, many of the roads are bowed for drainage purposes. Hard to find a truly flat road, so I usually run closest to the middle of the road.
I agree with you wrote:
Ahead of the Curve wrote:
This is a 6th grade math problem. David runs 5 mph on flat ground. Running uphill he goes 1 mph slower. Running down the same hill David goes 1 mph faster! David runs 5 miles away from his house uphill turns around and runs 5 miles downhill back home. The Brojos have David scheduled to start posting stupid running questions at 8pm. If he leaves for his run at 6pm will he be home in time?
I totally agree the BroJos pay this doofus to post stupid questions for clicks.
Yet, Morans keep biting. (yes, that includes me)
The BroJos hate me