Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

It's a shame guys like you and sirpoc aren't making content. It would be better than 99% of the channels or pods you have where there's 2-3 guys who have a fraction of the knowledge of you guys. But then again it's been mentioned before, this is the charm of the thread. You have to dig for the knowledge.

I didn’t post about this but absolutely experienced it. It just took a couple attempts and a focus on pacing to snap out of it. Personally, I wouldn’t wait for that December race if you had trouble pushing through—knock out a TT in the next few weeks to try shaking that rust off a bit more. I know sirpoc said he thinks his parkruns have been overrated as a training stimulus, and that’s probably true, but I think they’re helpful for people (me) who struggle snapping into race pace. I’m sure once I’ve done more I won’t have to do as many (if that makes sense), but for now I’ve had luck with ~2-4 weeks apart. My turkey trot’s close to an A race for me, so because I haven’t done one in a while I’m planning to hit a TT on the 14th to make sure I’m not rusty on Thanksgiving.

I did find, like others, that even-to-negative pacing helps a LOT. Run the first mile at your most recent 5k pace and see if you can gradually squeeze from there. You’re less likely to hit a home run but far less likely to crash out and get stuck at threshold the last mile and change. For me, the difference between going out at the right pace and going out 6 seconds fast was huge.

ETA: Just saw cheetodust’s post about warming up and that’s absolutely true. I saw him post about that earlier/elsewhere and started doing the following: 12min. jog, 1min threshold, 90s. jog, 2min. threshold, 90s jog, 3x30s @ 5k pace w/ walk or jog by feel between. Specifics probably are less important than just getting a good engine rev, and the longish 5k-pace strides helped me hop right into the pace when the race/TT starts.

Thank you, I’m going to try this for my next 5K in mid-dec and will report back.

I have been doing this training since the beginning of August, however only doing 2 x sub T sessions a week due to just running 4 times and maximum mileage around 35 miles for the week. My times from before I started this training were 5k - 17.09 and 10k 36.00 from June/July. I am a 42 year old female. My schedule looks something like this:

Tuesday - SubT - usually 8-10 x 3 mins

Thursday - Easy

Saturday - SubT - Either 5 x 2k, 6 x mile, 3 x 3k

Sunday - Easy

I ran a hilly 10k on Sunday in 36.10 which I was very happy with but more so with how I felt on the run, I felt really strong and the hills didn't seem to bother me at all even though I do no hills in training whatsoever, I live in a really flat area. Interestingly my HR only got to 2 beats above threshold on the 10k which surprised me especially with the hills.

I have a 5k race in December and another 10k on January 1st so will see how they go and whether I can keep seeing some progress.

Just wanted to post this incase anybody else had modified the training to only 2 x sub-T sessions a week and lower mileage. It gives me confidence that on a flatter course I would have dipped under 36 mins on Sunday for the 10k.

I do wonder if sirpoc and cheetodust would seriously consider this. I've heard sirpoc on a few pods and he seems natural and likeable. I know it's a lot to take on, but I think you could make a whole series really drilling down into all the marginal bits, points of interest and beyond. Or even sirpoc and Bakken, who it seems are on the same page from some recent Reddit discussions.

I know there's already a lot out there, but a lot of it is garbage. In this thread I trust.

One aspect I am particularly interested in is the warm up. There tends to be general consensus across the conventional running world that the warm up should consist of some easy running plus some strides/drills. The last few posts on doing something more threshold oriented makes total sense to me.

Have read most of this thread and will jump into it the first time. Did a 20:4x 5k, 6:47, 6:34, 6:32, 48-ish to close...Neg split but I wonder if I should have gone out faster.

It's hard to pace a 5k--the first mile I may have been too cautious but I didn't want to overdo it. Although by lap 11 I was starting to feel the side stitch but pushed through. 1:41-ish to open up the first few laps, although the last bunch were consistently 1:38-1:39.

I'm hoping to do NSM vanilla, exactly as described, and then re-test 6 weeks with another 5k. 40-45 mpw, nothing crazy.

Interesting hearing Cheeto say do some sub-T warmups first. That's new...

Also I should have done the sub-T warmup, I just did my normal dynamic stretches, then 1.5 EZ, then a few more dynamic stretches. Will do his matrix he suggested before the next TT.

scientifictriathlon.com

Critical Power and VO2 kinetics with Mark Burnley, PhD | EP#257

Mikael Eriksson

Mark Burnley, PhD, is an exercise physiologist at the University of Kent. Mark's main research interests include oxygen uptake (VO2) kinetics, where an important application is how to optimally use warm-ups, as well as Critic...

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23:50

It's a pod with Mark Burnley and it talks about 'priming' prior to events and it's impact on time to exhaustion.

From the show notes:

"Mechanism wise, we could show that the duration of the fast phase (until the oxygen uptake reaches a steady state) becomes shorter after a heavy exercise priming that is conducted 10-12mins before the actual race or test.
This means that less energy in the start of the race or test is coming from anaerobic energy sources and hence the ”anaerobic debt” is less at the start of the race, which enables the athletes to go longer on a given power or maintain a higher power during a given duration.
Shortly one can say that the heavy exercise warm up basically is ”priming” the aerobic system to react more quickly to greater energy demands.
It seems like the sweet spot to ”hit” intensity wise on the warm up/priming is between 3-5 mmol/l, the intensity that get you to this kind of lactate levels seems to be the kind of intensity to aim for during the warm up.
For those unaccustomed to blood lactate levels, this should represent 5-10mins of work at around threshold pace or power."

Most people are not warming up HARD enough prior middle to long distance events (especially anything shorter than 15k/10M).

Bakken referenced doing a 2k priming effort before his 5ks.

I've always found success doing a progression down to 10k ish pace (say 2x3:00 with 2:00R, 3x2:00 w/2:00R)

Good luck. Hope it works well for you. If you’re doing NSM vanilla, have you been averaging about 60 Mpw on 6-7 days the last 6-8 weeks to be prepped for the load?

I sort of fit into the description of someone trying to adapt it to a 4 sessions/week schedule. Sort of. My weekly number of sessions isn't consistant at all and could be anywhere between 2 and 6. Which according to a lot of people negates the main point of the method which should be to enable consistency. Anyway I do believe in easy running combined with sub-T running, especially for my prefered distances (races that take more than one hour). I'm an experiment of one and slower than you, but i've found two easy (one of which being long-ish) and two sub T as both manageable and allowing improvement in my case. For 3 sessions a week i'd probably do one easy long run (easy enough so it still feels easy at the end despite the length), and 2 sub T. For 5 or 6 i'd probably have more easy runs and only consider a 3rd subT if i sustain 6 sessions a week more than 3 weeks in a row, which doesn't really happen, and still feel great. But that's me in my current level of aerobic fitness and muscle endurance. Different situations might call for different adaptations. Or i might be plain wrong, which is a possibility.

Also at this point I don't care calling what i do NSM as it differs in several ways.

Shaved 5s off my 1500m PB to run a 4:30 using a minimally modified NSM. Was particularly happy because I hadn't run one in a year and just felt so strong.

My Week (6 runs): 2 easy, 1 long (90 mins), 3 Sub-T with 2 standard SubTs with 32 mins of work (4 x 8, 8 x 4, etc).

Only tweaked 1 Sub-T sess each week for 3 weeks out to do 24 mins of work and finish with 6 x 200m (1500 pace) with 1' rest for 2 weeks, and then one session with 4 x 400 (1500 pace) w 2' rest.

Interested to hear what other people have tried for shorter distances? I contemplated swapping 1 SubT out for a proper middle distance session but was worried the load and intensity might be too much. I've also had such good results with NSM over the last season over the HM particularly (5 mins off), that I just didn't want to deviate. I reckon if I do another 1500 I could definitely sneak some more time off and hopefully get close to 425 as in my 3rd lap I died hard.

New ep featuring Jakob and some heat training because why not.

Really looking forward to his Marathon -- looks like he's training for a 2:30 from his Strava, his brother/coach last ep sounded even more optimistic (2:26). Somehow I see him closer to 2:40 but maybe I'm underestimating the guy.

Comrade sirpoc with another Chinese shoe testimonial on Strava. Curious about the duds though, which ones didn't work?

Personally very happy with Li-Ning (Red Hare 8 Pro, Challenger 5), Dynafish (1.0, new one always out of stock) is pretty good, and Xtep 7.0 work well for me.

Not sure about the Do-Win PB 3; they are bouncy af but they look and feel like some kid poorly glued them together during recess. Kinda wanna try their Adiclogs rip-off for a Marathon but I'm afraid of them falling apart by mile 15 or so.

This guy is beast. King of all hobby guys. I think he runs 2:25. Something hobby guys can only dream of. Dude is on another planet for 9-5 guys.

People have been "critical" of him for running his easy runs too fast but he definitely seems to watch HR and react to it. Mentions he cut an easy dreadmill run short in the video because of stomach issues and his HR being too high. (Although, oddly enough, his HR for that run was lower than for the majority of his easy runs?)

And he doesn't seem to do a lot BLa testing anymore like he did in the past.

Towards the end Kristoffer seemed pretty skeptical when Jakob said he could aim for sub 2:30. Kristoffer said something like, "on my first marathon attempt? I don't know." Jakobs prediction of range of 2:26 to 2:59, lol.

What's the purpose of doing 1 heat training session? They said it's a similar effect of training at altitude, but does just one 15k run at 32c do much? I'd think you'd need several, but what do I know.

Kristoffer probably seems the most down to earth & likeable out of all the brothers. Though he grumbles about his job that involves lots of travel with conference calls and business meals. I'd kill for a job like that. You're probably begging to run after sitting all day. You probably get meals provided too & it's on the clock with paid travel? Sign me up.

No, not that much, about 40ish base, but I have been running all year (since January), and got to as high as 65. The base is there. And I'd start off with just 2 ST sessions a week following vanilla plan, and even start off paces slower than lactrace.

Watching the KI videos, he appears to be breathing very heavy during his tempo reps. He was also breathing heavy after his easy run.

I don’t breathe as heavy as that, but maybe everyone is different?