Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

Cheetodust wrote:

This was kind of an eye opener. I view the NSM overwhelmingly beneficial compared to all previous training styles I’ve undertaken prior. I didn’t have a term for the staleness I’ve felt at the start of races, but ‘threshold lock’ fits nicely. For the first year, I did traditional warmups, then moved to 1-2 min S/T and honestly I still would feel rusty in the start of races no matter the distance. The longer the hard reps I do pre-race, the better the race has played out so far. So I definitely think I essentially did a warm up 5k first, because I felt way better on the second.
This is a novel issue as far as I’m concerned. Meaning I just didn’t expect it but figure I can work around it on race day without changing training leading into the race.

Alfie wrote:

speedgonemissing wrote:

14 Weeks into vanilla NSM and very happy overall as I feel a lot fitter and less fatigued (previously following the standard track intervals, tempos, blah blah blah type of training). Have averaged about 55 miles a week.

Around the start of NSM, after a summer of “traditional” training I ran a 5K race in just under 18 minutes. Last saturday I did a (no taper) parkrun TT and ran 18:42. It was a weird experience, as legs felt strong, I was trying to push with full effort, but my HR stayed below threshold (right at what I hit on 1K repeats). I just did not have another gear BUT I felt like I could have substained the pace for several more miles. So different from a normal full send 5k when you are just hanging on by a thread in last half mile.

I know it’s early days but I was hoping for a little improvement so was a bit disappointed. Gonna keep going with HSM if only because I feel so damn good on this training and it’s the first time I’ve been able to sustain decent mileage without feeling a bit wrecked.

Anyone else experience this?

Some people posted way back with similar experiences. It was termed "threshold lock". IDK if they broke through this, and posted an update?

Cheetodust wrote:

Cheetos are the best wrote:

I noticed you ran 2 low 15s on the same day, on pretty rubbish looking XC courses.

As one of the NSM 'elites', do you think you might have gone as good in race two as you were more ready to go? I usually struggle the first km of a race since training like this. Can't complain, as my results are on another level to any previous training. But it seems to be something that comes up a lot.

This was kind of an eye opener. I view the NSM overwhelmingly beneficial compared to all previous training styles I’ve undertaken prior. I didn’t have a term for the staleness I’ve felt at the start of races, but ‘threshold lock’ fits nicely. For the first year, I did traditional warmups, then moved to 1-2 min S/T and honestly I still would feel rusty in the start of races no matter the distance. The longer the hard reps I do pre-race, the better the race has played out so far. So I definitely think I essentially did a warm up 5k first, because I felt way better on the second.
This is a novel issue as far as I’m concerned. Meaning I just didn’t expect it but figure I can work around it on race day without changing training leading into the race.

WashedAF wrote:

Alfie wrote:

Some people posted way back with similar experiences. It was termed "threshold lock". IDK if they broke through this, and posted an update?

I didn’t post about this but absolutely experienced it. It just took a couple attempts and a focus on pacing to snap out of it. Personally, I wouldn’t wait for that December race if you had trouble pushing through—knock out a TT in the next few weeks to try shaking that rust off a bit more. I know sirpoc said he thinks his parkruns have been overrated as a training stimulus, and that’s probably true, but I think they’re helpful for people (me) who struggle snapping into race pace. I’m sure once I’ve done more I won’t have to do as many (if that makes sense), but for now I’ve had luck with ~2-4 weeks apart. My turkey trot’s close to an A race for me, so because I haven’t done one in a while I’m planning to hit a TT on the 14th to make sure I’m not rusty on Thanksgiving.

I did find, like others, that even-to-negative pacing helps a LOT. Run the first mile at your most recent 5k pace and see if you can gradually squeeze from there. You’re less likely to hit a home run but far less likely to crash out and get stuck at threshold the last mile and change. For me, the difference between going out at the right pace and going out 6 seconds fast was huge.

ETA: Just saw cheetodust’s post about warming up and that’s absolutely true. I saw him post about that earlier/elsewhere and started doing the following: 12min. jog, 1min threshold, 90s. jog, 2min. threshold, 90s jog, 3x30s @ 5k pace w/ walk or jog by feel between. Specifics probably are less important than just getting a good engine rev, and the longish 5k-pace strides helped me hop right into the pace when the race/TT starts.

roulette wheel wrote:

WashedAF wrote:

I didn’t post about this but absolutely experienced it. It just took a couple attempts and a focus on pacing to snap out of it. Personally, I wouldn’t wait for that December race if you had trouble pushing through—knock out a TT in the next few weeks to try shaking that rust off a bit more. I know sirpoc said he thinks his parkruns have been overrated as a training stimulus, and that’s probably true, but I think they’re helpful for people (me) who struggle snapping into race pace. I’m sure once I’ve done more I won’t have to do as many (if that makes sense), but for now I’ve had luck with ~2-4 weeks apart. My turkey trot’s close to an A race for me, so because I haven’t done one in a while I’m planning to hit a TT on the 14th to make sure I’m not rusty on Thanksgiving.

I did find, like others, that even-to-negative pacing helps a LOT. Run the first mile at your most recent 5k pace and see if you can gradually squeeze from there. You’re less likely to hit a home run but far less likely to crash out and get stuck at threshold the last mile and change. For me, the difference between going out at the right pace and going out 6 seconds fast was huge.

ETA: Just saw cheetodust’s post about warming up and that’s absolutely true. I saw him post about that earlier/elsewhere and started doing the following: 12min. jog, 1min threshold, 90s. jog, 2min. threshold, 90s jog, 3x30s @ 5k pace w/ walk or jog by feel between. Specifics probably are less important than just getting a good engine rev, and the longish 5k-pace strides helped me hop right into the pace when the race/TT starts.

Have read most of this thread and will jump into it the first time. Did a 20:4x 5k, 6:47, 6:34, 6:32, 48-ish to close...Neg split but I wonder if I should have gone out faster.

It's hard to pace a 5k--the first mile I may have been too cautious but I didn't want to overdo it. Although by lap 11 I was starting to feel the side stitch but pushed through. 1:41-ish to open up the first few laps, although the last bunch were consistently 1:38-1:39.

I'm hoping to do NSM vanilla, exactly as described, and then re-test 6 weeks with another 5k. 40-45 mpw, nothing crazy.

Interesting hearing Cheeto say do some sub-T warmups first. That's new...

masters runna wrote:

Cheetodust wrote:

This was kind of an eye opener. I view the NSM overwhelmingly beneficial compared to all previous training styles I’ve undertaken prior. I didn’t have a term for the staleness I’ve felt at the start of races, but ‘threshold lock’ fits nicely. For the first year, I did traditional warmups, then moved to 1-2 min S/T and honestly I still would feel rusty in the start of races no matter the distance. The longer the hard reps I do pre-race, the better the race has played out so far. So I definitely think I essentially did a warm up 5k first, because I felt way better on the second.
This is a novel issue as far as I’m concerned. Meaning I just didn’t expect it but figure I can work around it on race day without changing training leading into the race.

This is also eye opening to me. Your running career and what you have experienced is beyond just about everyone in this thread. So I view the fact you see nsm as "overwhelming" better a very big statement that's hard to overlook.