50+ Masters Training and Racing Open Forum

Mike,

I do have one linked to my Garmin but I have never used it. I hate to admit it, but I have no idea what good ranges would be for me. I will break it out in two weeks when I get through my summer season. Thanks for reminding me what tools I should be using.

Racing the mile, one of the realizations I have is, you get anaerobic lactate sooner the slower you get. I am not sure if that is the right terminology. Instead of getting in that zone at 1,200m you are there at 1,000m. So pretty important to get the early pace right since I can't hang on for 600m, maybe 300m.

Igy

Hoser, eh:

Good luck with the injury. In regards to yard work, a masters friend of mine schedules the task as if it is a hard day. I mow my lawn on Saturdays after a hard session or long run. In the heat of the summer it can be pretty exhausting.

Igy

imarunner wrote:

imarunner wrote:

"imarunner is legit and has been around a long time," perhaps but not a registered name

imarunr is a registered name

I did not post this. My handle has been hacked. The troll reveals himself first through his protestations and now through his actions. I'm leaving until he does.

We have a crafty and nefarious troll in this thread. Really annoying. I wish the cybersleuths or mods could root out this individual, or cabal if it's a few, and get them off the board.

Hoser,

I am a bit older at 67, so I probably heal a bit slower than you do. I did something similar to what you described developing a case of runner's knee in May of 2016 that forced me to completely stop running for several weeks. For over a year I had been trying to train hard and race with several soft tissue injuries (IT band, calf strains, achilles soreness) without letting them heal properly, but just trying to "manage" them through a day or two off and anti-inflammatories. In April '16 I did a 5K race and then a hard mile repeat workout about 3 days later and the following day I could hardly walk from the knee pain.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I now am 15 months into a healing and fitness rebuilding effort that I thought would take 6 months. I am to the point where I am running about 25 mpw and walking another 25 mpw. I am still getting a little soreness and stiffness in my knee after hard workouts but otherwise injury-free. I haven't had an MRI or x-ray, so I don't know if there is some permanent problem or just minor residual inflammation.

What I did find after my injury was that in the process of trying to run hard and "manage" my injuries I had developed some significant strength imbalances in my legs trying to compensate for the injuries. Rebuilding symmetrical strength in my legs as well as being patient with the healing and inflammation reduction process have been the necessary elements to getting healed.

In addition to very gradually increasing my running volume, I have been consistently working on a strength routine. I do 20 minutes on a rowing machine and 15 to 20 minutes on a series of body weight exercises including squats, one-legged squats (I still have a lot of room for improvement on them), lunges, hurdle step-overs and a couple of other drills.

After 15 months of building this routine I feel like I am just getting back to a point where my legs are durable enough to work on more serious running training. So, my experience has been that healing the knee properly is a longer slower process than any of us think it should be. My advice is be patient, don't rush it and be consistent about doing the exercises that you can to strengthen and protect the joint.

Getting back a little speed now after some hills. Relatively gentle track session of 300/200/100 - 400/300/200/100

58.7, 38.7, 16.1 - 84, 59,2, 39.2, 15.4 - pretty happy with the last 100, as at 60, it's getting back down near 13 flat age graded, which is OK for targeting 1500m/3000m

Tempo pace seems good at 6:20 per mile for 3 miles, and speed is obviously coming back. Biggest weakness at the moment is the amount of oxygen debt I'm getting at these 1500/3000m paces, even though recovery is quick.

Anybody know if that is an area that typically comes back more slowly.

More reps slightly slower seemed much easier - didn't have much problem with the 16x300 at 10:40 3000m pace with 1 min recovery.

Ghost of Igloi wrote:

Racing the mile, one of the realizations I have is, you get anaerobic lactate sooner the slower you get. I am not sure if that is the right terminology.

While factually correct, the concern is not with lactate (a good byproduct), but with the dissociated H+ ions. Those are the buggers that you want buffered early and often.

Good luck with your race.

Cavorty wrote:

Tempo pace seems good at 6:20 per mile for 3 miles, and speed is obviously coming back. Biggest weakness at the moment is the amount of oxygen debt I'm getting at these 1500/3000m paces, even though recovery is quick.

Anybody know if that is an area that typically comes back more slowly.

More reps slightly slower seemed much easier - didn't have much problem with the 16x300 at 10:40 3000m pace with 1 min recovery.

Not sure if my latest comeback helps but getting LT pace back took the longest. This might be because of my unorthodox training. I ran vo2max effort for a total of 1 or 2 miles 1 or 2 times a week for the first 3 or 4 months. So my ability to sustain a semi hard effort was crap. I did this to hit an early goal and because in my book short hard fast with 2 or 3 recovery days is low risk with big gains. I figured that back filling / raising my LT closer to vo2max would be easy but this was not the case. Next 3 months included longer runs at LT pace. Progress was slow but finally able to run at LT effort comfortably. Two days ago I ran 2 miles at 10mph feeling pretty comfortable probably right at 10 k race effort. Six weeks prior the same workout was close to all out. In between I did a lot of runs at 6:15 to 6:20 for up to 24 minutes. I am pretty sure I will keep doing the above for at least the next 6 months. That is shorter 12 to 15 minute runs at 10k and longer 20 to 30 minute runs 15 secs a mile slower than current 10k race pace hopefully progressing to sub 6 LT for 20 minutes. Also keeping in the 4 to 5 minute vo2max efforts with 2 minute rests.As far as running faster than mile pace 200s 300s ect I feel like this stuff is not that useful as a workout. Knocking out a few 200s or even a 400 at current 1500 race pace keeps me on track neuro muscular wise. Now this is probably because I have very little fast twitch or slow twitch I am all medium twitch. Can't run long cant run fast but can run semi fast and semi long. I think the key to training is understanding exactly what you got and what you do not have and this changes as we age.

Coach X and cavorty,

Thanks Coach X, we will see if I have enough in the tank to buffer the buggers! I am not sure how to answer cavorty, perhaps you can weigh-in, but it seems to take longer to acquire this ability. And, seemingly pretty easy to do too much in training and end up on the other side of fitness.

Igy

old guy II wrote:

In addition to very gradually increasing my running volume, I have been consistently working on a strength routine. I do 20 minutes on a rowing machine and 15 to 20 minutes on a series of body weight exercises including squats, one-legged squats (I still have a lot of room for improvement on them), lunges, hurdle step-overs and a couple of other drills.

After 15 months of building this routine I feel like I am just getting back to a point where my legs are durable enough to work on more serious running training. So, my experience has been that healing the knee properly is a longer slower process than any of us think it should be. My advice is be patient, don't rush it and be consistent about doing the exercises that you can to strengthen and protect the joint.

Thanks for sharing this. I've been dealing with runner's knee since April, and like you, I am trying to "manage through" with reduced mileage, ice, anti-inflammatories, and days off. I know eventually I will need an extended period with no running.

In the meantime, I've added some strength and stretching routines. But I can't imagine even attempting a one-legged squat. It's been years since I've been able to stand from a "semi-squat," using BOTH legs -- always need to assist with my arms. Just complete weakness and discomfort in my knees. I'm not sure where to begin to work on that.

Well, only four more weeks of training, then a three-week taper, then the marathon. THEN some time off to heal and work on these things.

Thanks, Charlie, Igy, old guy and Allen.

I'd prefer not to give up hockey if possible. It's true that it produced the most notable swelling this past spring, but it was never painful after skating.

I'm like Allen--I couldn't do a squat with both legs. My left would give out for sure. But I will try to get better at the exercises I can manage.

Still curious if anyone's has a cortisone shot in the knee or a synthetic lubricant injected.

When I started my rehab process I could do about 6 shallow one leg squats with my left leg and zero with my right leg (which is the one with runners knee). I still can only go about half way to a 90 degree knee bend, but I now can do 16 with each leg and I feel like I have regained a lot of "springiness" in my legs that I thought was never coming back.

I do one leg squats on the flat side of a Bosu Ball. Good for the hips, not sure about the knee. I started doing them in a door frame for balance, or a squat rack.

Hoser, eh wrote:

Still curious if anyone's has a cortisone shot in the knee or a synthetic lubricant injected.

Nothing like that -- so far -- for me. I'm hoping to avoid any medical involvement at all ... fearing a report not so different from yours!

With hockey, I imagine there are a lot of eccentric movements, and quick changes in direction? Would that contribute to the problem? Or strengthen the joint laterally, and maybe help?

My "other activity" is cycling, which really seems to help my knees. And my achilles, too. In a couple weeks, my baby brother and I are hooking up in central New York State for a hilly 70-mile ride. His cancer has reappeared, so it will be sort of an emotional day, because who knows about tomorrow ...

By comparison, I'm happy with the sore knees. We lost our older brother to cancer when he was only 40.

Unlike Charlie, II seem to be predominantly fast twitch, but with a decent V02 max. I was never more than an decent English club runner until I came over here in my late 30s, and was able to win some 5k road races.

I could run reasonable longer distance - 37:14 at 56, but prefer shorter. Until I got injured I was finishing my longer rep track session with 4x100m in the 14-15 range.

Last week (having turned 60, and having been injured for about three years on and off) was the first time back to a 15 and change, so I was pleased with that.

Hoping to get down to around 5 min 1500/10:45 3000m

Speed has come around fast, and steady pace/LT is fine, but I'm surprised how much oxygen debt I'm getting after 300m/400m at race pace.

Definitely easy to go pass peak quickly too, especially with fast twitch runners!

Cavorty,

I think you are type 2a but training too short and fast or slow and long.

Instead of 300s do 1000s but slower say 4x3:35 with 2 minutes rest and LT runs alternates between 6 for 2 miles and 6:20 for 3. The type 2a fibers need to be trained for fatigue resistence. Those 300 are less than a minute in length and that will not get the job done.The type 2a fiber morph a bit based upon training. Run long and slow and they get more like slow twitch fibers do them killa fast short repeats and they get more like 2x fibers fast but easily fatigued.

crafty and nefarious wrote:

imarunner wrote:

I did not post this. My handle has been hacked. The troll reveals himself first through his protestations and now through his actions. I'm leaving until he does.

We have a crafty and nefarious troll in this thread. Really annoying. I wish the cybersleuths or mods could root out this individual, or cabal if it's a few, and get them off the board.

I'd say this is wishful thinking given the lack of proof of any actual trolling. I've asked two different posters who claim there is trolling for some proof and they've been able to come up with nothing. This seems to all just be a made up excuse for someone's bad behavior.

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Week 322

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Greetings, 50+ers! So much to read, so little time. A ton of good stuff reported last week. Sorry not to have been able to contribute anything productive.

And on to my week, which was another failed attempt to restart this engine. As you know, July was a complete bust for me; between the knee and then the back and then the road trip (Wife's 40th HS reunion.....are we really that old?) I only managed 6 runs the entire month. I thought that August would start out much better and that I would ease back into training. Being cautious, I ran only 4 miles on Tuesday and the same again on Thursday...everything was feeling good (though my aerobic fitness has clearly suffered.) Saturday was meant to be another 4-miler, but I had to do some yard work first. Four hours later, I'd finished what needed to be done, but then that left knee that scuttled the start of July started acting up again. Dammit! The muscles behind the knee start spasming and the muscles just above the knee get tight, as well. Don't think it's a meniscus issue, and it doesn't feel like a ligament problem (though I might have strained it.) I guess I'll need to bite the bullet and get it checked out....so I remain essentially out of commission.

And how about you? What's the good word? Hope you've had a good week, as I continue to live vicariously through you training, racing, and travel (how about the 10,000 m at Worlds, MikeF?) exploits.

All the Best!

I am going to check in early without knowing what I am doing for a run today (probably nothing) because I am off to be a volunteer official at our local Masters track meet in less than an hour. I'm currently working on coffee and watching some Worlds on TV. This week was an inconsistent but good training week for me. I think my July increase in mileage really caught up with me this week. Only 25 miles so far, but an excellent workout yesterday.

M- 7mi walk

T- 7mi walk/run barefoot on the beach

W- off -really tired

Th- off -really tired

F- off - still tired but better

S- 11mi with 5 x hard mile/ easy mile, effort miles 7:33, 7:21, 7:19, 7:02, 6:52

Good running to all!

Mon. Hilly 5 km run and easy 10 km mtb.

Tue. Hillier 5.6 km run (230 m. elev. gain) 42 min. Fast hour on the mtb. and a fast half hour kayak.

Wed. Flat easy 5 km. run. 6 km ride into work and 4 km ride back after work.

Thu. Very steep 6 km run 46 min.

Fri. 1 hr 48 min mtb ride.

Sat. Hilly 11 km run (330 m) 1 hr 8 min.

Sun. Hilly 11 km run 1 hr 9 min.

Happy to get some kms of running into the legs. Nothing flash just trotting along.

Riding pretty well at the moment so my engine is pretty fit. Had hoped to get at least one more kayak session but a very nasty cold front the last few days made it an unattractive option.