That’s absurd. RU’s plan was completely obvious to decapitate UKR and install a puppet. there is no debate to this - I’ll talk to you about other things but you are just being obstinate if you argue that 50km line of stuff was just intimidation and not a full on invasion. don’t insult us or Putin.
it's not intellectually honest to condemn the UKR right to self-defense because a few thousands neo-nazis are fighting for them.
You should rethink that one.
I do not disagree with you. Yet, define "Ukraine". AZOV was literally fighting (and killing) it's fellow citizens in Donbas to stop the uprise once Yanukovich was overthrown.
This is not self-defending, as Ukraine is not really politically and culturally homogenous. West Ukraine was fighting East Ukraine and the West Ukraine is now being aided by NATO, while East Ukraine is being aided by Russia.
Therefore I like pointing out how we collectivelly are ruining entire world right now, just so West Ukraine can keep Donbas by force.
People here love pretending how Russia is this monster that is stealing land and people from poor victims. Yet Crimea and Donbas are literally "little Russias" on Ukrainian land.
Polling conducting in Jan, 2022 showed that roughly 30% of the people in Donbas wanted to join Russia, while 40% wanted to stay part of Ukraine. It is entirely disingenuous to act like Eastern Ukraine wants to be part of Russia. Less than 1/3 of the people living there want that.
It's also disingenuous to act like the people of Crimea have any true allegiance to Russia, as the Soviets drove all the native Taters out of Crimea at the end of WW2 and replaced them with Russians. How about all the Russians leave, let the Taters come back, and then they can hold a referendum on whether they want to be part of Russia, Ukraine, or independent?
Weird that you are so angry at US wars that you are ready to accept RU wars.
think that one through. It sounds faulty to me.
I do not accept RU wars per se. I simply want equal rules for all, either it's no wars or free for all. I see reasoning behind wanting to help Donbas fight against AZOV, but do not necessarily agree with the way Russia decided to go about it.
I sorta like the idea, that country can be sanctioned enough to rethink its military ambitions. In a perfect world, any country with active troups abroad should be sanctioned and excluded from the international community. Yes, including the US.
I consider the attack on Kiev a failed intimidation tactics against Ukrainian government.
The only true thing about this statement is that the attack on Kyiv was a failure. 70,000 Russian soldiers getting bogged down by poor logistics and having to retreat was not about "intimidation". It was a deliberate attempt to encircle Kyiv and force regime change, or bomb and siege Kyiv until the Ukrainian government capitulated. It follows the exact playbook that Russia used in Grozny, only in this case it failed miserably.
And Europe is hardly sitting tight. As a percent of gdp many euro contries are contributing more to the war against russia Than the USA contributes.
and there is no cracking in the alliance except for Hungary.
Europe is in this- not a passive onlooker as the USA and ru have a proxy war.
It is sitting tight. EU is providing the absolute minimum pro - forma military support to Ukraine, solely to make it look like it's on the same side with the US. If the US would stop supporting Ukraine today, tomorrow Nord Stream 2 would go online.
Weird that you are so angry at US wars that you are ready to accept RU wars.
think that one through. It sounds faulty to me.
I do not accept RU wars per se. I simply want equal rules for all, either it's no wars or free for all. I see reasoning behind wanting to help Donbas fight against AZOV, but do not necessarily agree with the way Russia decided to go about it.
I sorta like the idea, that country can be sanctioned enough to rethink its military ambitions. In a perfect world, any country with active troups abroad should be sanctioned and excluded from the international community. Yes, including the US.
well you aren't gonna get any of that.
and anyway, reading between your lines are big hopes that RU will win a decisive victory on UKR to smash US and NATO hegemony. It's in every word you write, every sentence you put together. You actively hope RU will win, even if you won't admit it.
And that is EXACTLY the RU line. THat all RU is trying to do is break the hegemonic hold of the 'West' over the world. You are exactly parroting that, and condemning a free nation to servitude...just to teach the nasty old US a lesson.
I'd rethink that. And maybe ask Poland, the baltics, and other former soviet nations why they are so rabidly anti-RU.
well that's simple - RU's wars are threatening Europe so NATO and the west care.
whereas wars and slaughter in the middle east and africa don't threaten europe, the west, NATO, so the West, Europe, NATO doesn't care so much about those.
This is all pretty simple.
I would word it differently: RU showing power in Ukraine is a threat to the US as a world leader, therefore the US is taking action. EU is sitting tight, trying not to stirr anything up and figuring out how to get over the upcoming recession.
The main reason why the world is a hypocrytical mess is because Europe has become very passive and inable to protect its own interests and ideals. Hanging on tight to Americas skirt and keeping eyes shut on Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan, but barking at Russia as told by the US.
I become more and more convinced that the EU needs to fail in order to restructure itself and become a superpower on its own. Right now politically it's just an Atlantic branch of the US. The world shouldn't be monopolized by the US and needs to have several superpowers to keep balance.
What you see as Europe being passive, is because Europe's interests and US's interests have been pretty much aligned for the past 75 years or so. Did you think Europe was going to support Russia? Throughout this thread you've been railing against "The West" but now your making distinctions between Europe and the US.
That’s absurd. RU’s plan was completely obvious to decapitate UKR and install a puppet. there is no debate to this - I’ll talk to you about other things but you are just being obstinate if you argue that 50km line of stuff was just intimidation and not a full on invasion. don’t insult us or Putin.
50km line of stuff sounds exactly like intimidation tactics to make Zelensky resign.
Now decapitation would be either a small Spetsnaz group or a mid-range missile attack on the Rada, as it would be effective.
I would word it differently: RU showing power in Ukraine is a threat to the US as a world leader, therefore the US is taking action. EU is sitting tight, trying not to stirr anything up and figuring out how to get over the upcoming recession.
The main reason why the world is a hypocrytical mess is because Europe has become very passive and inable to protect its own interests and ideals. Hanging on tight to Americas skirt and keeping eyes shut on Iraq, Iran and Afghanistan, but barking at Russia as told by the US.
I become more and more convinced that the EU needs to fail in order to restructure itself and become a superpower on its own. Right now politically it's just an Atlantic branch of the US. The world shouldn't be monopolized by the US and needs to have several superpowers to keep balance.
What you see as Europe being passive, is because Europe's interests and US's interests have been pretty much aligned for the past 75 years or so. Did you think Europe was going to support Russia? Throughout this thread you've been railing against "The West" but now your making distinctions between Europe and the US.
Europe is not being passive.
many eu nations are giving more aid than the us, proportionately
Weird that you are so angry at US wars that you are ready to accept RU wars.
think that one through. It sounds faulty to me.
I do not accept RU wars per se. I simply want equal rules for all, either it's no wars or free for all. I see reasoning behind wanting to help Donbas fight against AZOV, but do not necessarily agree with the way Russia decided to go about it.
I sorta like the idea, that country can be sanctioned enough to rethink its military ambitions. In a perfect world, any country with active troups abroad should be sanctioned and excluded from the international community. Yes, including the US.
But, you don't condemn Russian wars either.
Countries that Lolly wants sanctioned (partial list) because they have troops deployed overseas. I'm not sure this is going to work as well as Lolly envisions.
Polling conducting in Jan, 2022 showed that roughly 30% of the people in Donbas wanted to join Russia, while 40% wanted to stay part of Ukraine. It is entirely disingenuous to act like Eastern Ukraine wants to be part of Russia. Less than 1/3 of the people living there want that.
It's also disingenuous to act like the people of Crimea have any true allegiance to Russia, as the Soviets drove all the native Taters out of Crimea at the end of WW2 and replaced them with Russians. How about all the Russians leave, let the Taters come back, and then they can hold a referendum on whether they want to be part of Russia, Ukraine, or independent?
Here you go with the Tatars again. Yes, it's TatArs by the way, and not TatErs, as somebody who claims to have family in Ukraine would know, you liar :)
How about Americans go back to Europe and let native Americans repopulate their land?
Thank you very much, I think this argument with Tatars is now closed and we can move on to other topics.
Polling conducted by who??? There is a polling being conducted as we speak and you'll get to see the results very soon :)
I do not accept RU wars per se. I simply want equal rules for all, either it's no wars or free for all. I see reasoning behind wanting to help Donbas fight against AZOV, but do not necessarily agree with the way Russia decided to go about it.
If you don't accept RU wars per se, then how do you accept them?
many eu nations are giving more aid than the us, proportionately
Which EU countries are giving more military aid than the US proportionately? Either way, proportionately might be the wrong way to measure things here, because if Vatican would send one helmet to Ukraine, it wouldn't be a significant help anyway.
Countries that Lolly wants sanctioned (partial list) because they have troops deployed overseas. I'm not sure this is going to work as well as Lolly envisions.
United States
Egypt
Ghana
Pakistan
China
Russia
Honduras
Nigeria
Brazil
Malaysia
Bangladesh
Rwanda
Morocco
Zambia
Nepal
Burundi
Mauritania
Chad
France
Guinea
Togo
Germany
Senegal
South Africa
Tanzania
Uruguay
Malawi
Indonesia
India
Ireland
Fiji
Czech Republic
Bhutan
Netherlands
Argentina
United Kingdom
Hungary
Slovakia
Austria
Serbia
Norway
Italy
Spain
Namibia
Turkey
Finland
Moldova
Romania
Ethiopia
Mongolia
Korea
Philippines
Sweden
Switzerland
New Zealand
I said active troops, therefore troops in combat, as the only thing that matters to anyone with a brain is if people are being killed or not. Here you go, your list gets shorter.
That’s absurd. RU’s plan was completely obvious to decapitate UKR and install a puppet. there is no debate to this - I’ll talk to you about other things but you are just being obstinate if you argue that 50km line of stuff was just intimidation and not a full on invasion. don’t insult us or Putin.
50km line of stuff sounds exactly like intimidation tactics to make Zelensky resign.
Now decapitation would be either a small Spetsnaz group or a mid-range missile attack on the Rada, as it would be effective.
Yup, a prime military tactic is to send giant columns aimed at a foreign capital. just to scare them. And then let it sit while being picked apart by defenders. Only to retreat in utter defeat. /sarcasm.
you are departing logic and factdom on this issue. And it doesn’t matter. The goal was to take over the entire nation by intimidation or at the point of a gun. And you wish they had succeeded, just to give the usa a bloody nose and say ‘I told you so.’
I do not accept RU wars per se. I simply want equal rules for all, either it's no wars or free for all. I see reasoning behind wanting to help Donbas fight against AZOV, but do not necessarily agree with the way Russia decided to go about it.
If you don't accept RU wars per se, then how do you accept them?
Polling conducting in Jan, 2022 showed that roughly 30% of the people in Donbas wanted to join Russia, while 40% wanted to stay part of Ukraine. It is entirely disingenuous to act like Eastern Ukraine wants to be part of Russia. Less than 1/3 of the people living there want that.
It's also disingenuous to act like the people of Crimea have any true allegiance to Russia, as the Soviets drove all the native Taters out of Crimea at the end of WW2 and replaced them with Russians. How about all the Russians leave, let the Taters come back, and then they can hold a referendum on whether they want to be part of Russia, Ukraine, or independent?
Here you go with the Tatars again. Yes, it's TatArs by the way, and not TatErs, as somebody who claims to have family in Ukraine would know, you liar :)
How about Americans go back to Europe and let native Americans repopulate their land?
Thank you very much, I think this argument with Tatars is now closed and we can move on to other topics.
Polling conducted by who??? There is a polling being conducted as we speak and you'll get to see the results very soon :)
Ah, autocorrect. It's a bugger.
And here you go with the whataboutism again. Are you sure you went to college? Didn't they teach you that just saying "But you too!" isn't actually an argument?
Polling conducted by Washington Post. Look it up, it's been posted in this thread previously.
