Steve, I was going to ask what changes you would make to “improve” the method. Perhaps you mentioned in the video as well, I haven’t watched it yet (been spending my free time catching-up on this thread) but it sounds like that above quoted post is it. The argument against swapping the Wednesday sub-T for hill sprints, speed variations or rhythm work is that hill sprints, rhythm work or speed variations would have a lower training load than a sub-t session. I understand that you don’t look at training through the same load lens that this thread does. That third session seems to be the real difference maker for the method. I’d be curious to hear you elaborate on this a bit more. That Wednesday session is obviously way less stressful than any VO2 work. But it’s also way less stress than a sub-t session and that is part of the issue.
I believe the answer that myself and others have settled upon is only swapping out the third sub T session for that speed dev day every 2 to 3 weeks.
For those who think this is too frequent I think it would work quite nicely to simply replace the monthly-bimonthly 5k TT / race with that day.
Personally I don't mind lowering the overall training load for that one week because I've found that treating every 2 to 3 weeks as a "down week" allows me to absorb the training better, even if I don't necessarily find myself needing to decrease.
I think the biggest question we keep coming back to is, how much does a variety of stimulus really matter concerning adaptation? Conventional training programs have always emphasized varying stimuli every so often to avoid stagnation. NSA seems to suggest that variety isn't as important as we thought.
I don’t have the academic chops to back and forth with the science minded folks here. In my two years of just doing the basic method, I’ve seen huge gains. I race road/xc/indoor/outdoor every year. I LOVE not periodizing my training, that was a forever hassle and I never got it right along with serious down sides. Now will I get beat by a peer here and there who did a specific build for one race, yeah totally. But I can race on a week’s notice at my top shape year round, no matter the discipline:800-10k, road/dirt/track. I view this as mutual fund investing. I’m buying the cheapest house on the nicest block. It’s the consistent safe play that is most likely to pay off. I’ve flown too close to the sun. It ain’t that fun.
Hi!! A little late to get around to this and for that I apologize. But I am "grandma's guy" and happy to answer any questions you all might have (if any).
Some details that haven't been mentioned (I don't think) -
sirpoc personally helped me step by step through the marathon block, giving constant feedback and answering questions. The plan was to follow his London build as closely as possible. I was around 8 weeks behind him in my build for Grandma's.
I have ran one marathon, but I was fried going into it and overestimated my fitness. I wanted to keep the dream alive with training and racing, so I forced it as a first year head coach, burning both ends of the candle. My first marathon was at CIM (worth noting this was the last chance for OTQ) and I came through half around 70 flat and finished in 2:38. Mileage peaked around 80 in the summer before I moved, and then dropped drastically when I moved to Arkansas due to heat + stress of the new job. I think I was running 55-65 on average for most of the build. The build was close to a standard marathon build with hard long runs but I supplemented it with heavy threshold volume. Looking back the T paces were probably too fast. I was always exhausted, even only running ~60 miles a week. Life stress (coaching stress) was likely a big contributor to this.
As for the "special block" - It was a blast. I felt so durable. Since it was only my second marathon and my first big training block since my massive break from running, I figured I had nothing to lose. A training plan that may or may not work, but will most likely keep me healthy. They say half the battle in the marathon is making it to the start line 1) healthy and 2) not overcooked. Worst case scenario I run a tiny PR since my debut was so rough. Nothing to lose, everything to gain. I did really love doing it though and felt really strong throughout the race itself.
Lastly, I have also had the chance to proofread sirpoc's book. He clearly has put a ridiculous amount of time into perfecting it, and I truly believe it will help loads of people. It's easily the most comprehensive training book I've read. You all are going to love it.
I believe the answer that myself and others have settled upon is only swapping out the third sub T session for that speed dev day every 2 to 3 weeks.
For those who think this is too frequent I think it would work quite nicely to simply replace the monthly-bimonthly 5k TT / race with that day.
Personally I don't mind lowering the overall training load for that one week because I've found that treating every 2 to 3 weeks as a "down week" allows me to absorb the training better, even if I don't necessarily find myself needing to decrease.
I think the biggest question we keep coming back to is, how much does a variety of stimulus really matter concerning adaptation? Conventional training programs have always emphasized varying stimuli every so often to avoid stagnation. NSA seems to suggest that variety isn't as important as we thought.
I don’t have the academic chops to back and forth with the science minded folks here. In my two years of just doing the basic method, I’ve seen huge gains. I race road/xc/indoor/outdoor every year. I LOVE not periodizing my training, that was a forever hassle and I never got it right along with serious down sides. Now will I get beat by a peer here and there who did a specific build for one race, yeah totally. But I can race on a week’s notice at my top shape year round, no matter the discipline:800-10k, road/dirt/track. I view this as mutual fund investing. I’m buying the cheapest house on the nicest block. It’s the consistent safe play that is most likely to pay off. I’ve flown too close to the sun. It ain’t that fun.
Totally fair. I definitely feel a bit out of my depth trying to discuss alongside Steve, but trying my best to offer my own experiences.
I get you on the being race ready year round with this approach: I know I can run within 3s of 800m PR shape at any time without getting anywhere near 58s 400m pace (save for strides).
I have a friend, 800m specialist who is way more talented than me speed wise - sub 50 open 400m speed vs my 54.mid. Last year he tried to focus on top end speed and race specific work during the early comp season and he ended up running slower than me by February.
Glad you're finding a lot of fun (and success) with the approach though. A few HS runners and friends have asked to be coached by me, and I'm definitely going to try applying my learnings from this method towards them when I get the chance to do so!
This post was edited 36 seconds after it was posted.
Hi!! A little late to get around to this and for that I apologize. But I am "grandma's guy" and happy to answer any questions you all might have (if any).
Some details that haven't been mentioned (I don't think) -
sirpoc personally helped me step by step through the marathon block, giving constant feedback and answering questions. The plan was to follow his London build as closely as possible. I was around 8 weeks behind him in my build for Grandma's.
I have ran one marathon, but I was fried going into it and overestimated my fitness. I wanted to keep the dream alive with training and racing, so I forced it as a first year head coach, burning both ends of the candle. My first marathon was at CIM (worth noting this was the last chance for OTQ) and I came through half around 70 flat and finished in 2:38. Mileage peaked around 80 in the summer before I moved, and then dropped drastically when I moved to Arkansas due to heat + stress of the new job. I think I was running 55-65 on average for most of the build. The build was close to a standard marathon build with hard long runs but I supplemented it with heavy threshold volume. Looking back the T paces were probably too fast. I was always exhausted, even only running ~60 miles a week. Life stress (coaching stress) was likely a big contributor to this.
As for the "special block" - It was a blast. I felt so durable. Since it was only my second marathon and my first big training block since my massive break from running, I figured I had nothing to lose. A training plan that may or may not work, but will most likely keep me healthy. They say half the battle in the marathon is making it to the start line 1) healthy and 2) not overcooked. Worst case scenario I run a tiny PR since my debut was so rough. Nothing to lose, everything to gain. I did really love doing it though and felt really strong throughout the race itself.
Lastly, I have also had the chance to proofread sirpoc's book. He clearly has put a ridiculous amount of time into perfecting it, and I truly believe it will help loads of people. It's easily the most comprehensive training book I've read. You all are going to love it.
I hope he prices it appropriately, and doesn’t under sell himself.
I don’t have the academic chops to back and forth with the science minded folks here. In my two years of just doing the basic method, I’ve seen huge gains. I race road/xc/indoor/outdoor every year. I LOVE not periodizing my training, that was a forever hassle and I never got it right along with serious down sides. Now will I get beat by a peer here and there who did a specific build for one race, yeah totally. But I can race on a week’s notice at my top shape year round, no matter the discipline:800-10k, road/dirt/track. I view this as mutual fund investing. I’m buying the cheapest house on the nicest block. It’s the consistent safe play that is most likely to pay off. I’ve flown too close to the sun. It ain’t that fun.
Totally fair. I definitely feel a bit out of my depth trying to discuss alongside Steve, but trying my best to offer my own experiences.
I get you on the being race ready year round with this approach: I know I can run within 3s of 800m PR shape at any time without getting anywhere near 58s 400m pace (save for strides).
I have a friend, 800m specialist who is way more talented than me speed wise - sub 50 open 400m speed vs my 54.mid. Last year he tried to focus on top end speed and race specific work during the early comp season and he ended up running slower than me by February.
Glad you're finding a lot of fun (and success) with the approach though. A few HS runners and friends have asked to be coached by me, and I'm definitely going to try applying my learnings from this method towards them when I get the chance to do so!
At the very least those hs kids will likely have fewer injuries and potentially view their time running more favorably. Hopefully offering a chance for lifelong enjoyment of the sport.
This could be: -15min split LT, 3-4min rest, 6x200 at 3k pace -20min split @ MP, 5min rest, 4-6xHS -10min LT, 4x30sec hill charges, 10min LT - 4x45sec @ 8k pace, 15min @ sub LT, 4x30sec @ 5k -4 sets of (5min @ LT, 45sec rest, 1min @ 10k)
I know you said that you don't subscribe to training load theory, but all of these have a very low TSS compared to any of Sirpoc's workouts and some of them would be more fatiguing also.
It's great to suggest these but I think this gets to the core of the debate. For one, it's not clear how to progress some of these other than to go faster on the reps. Something like Jakob's 20-25x400m probably makes more sense than a lot of these workouts -- still a decent pace with moderate fatigue and high TSS that is easily extended.
I am an example of one but I tried the by the book Sirpoc training for a year and have now been adding in speed dev on Monday’s and swapping the Saturday sub t for 12-26x200 for the last 6-8 months. I really think the traditional way works wonders and it got me crazy aerobic strong but I wasn’t racing well. I’ve had more success by some margin using the X factor workout and short hill sprints and strides after easy runs. Again, I am a sample size of 1 and have always been more FT and struggled as the distance went up.
So the beauty for me is that this great program is widely available and easy to implement. And if the by the book method works awesome for you, you should absolutely keep doing it. And vice versa if you got a little experimental and it clicked for you.