Steve, I was going to ask what changes you would make to “improve” the method. Perhaps you mentioned in the video as well, I haven’t watched it yet (been spending my free time catching-up on this thread) but it sounds like that above quoted post is it. The argument against swapping the Wednesday sub-T for hill sprints, speed variations or rhythm work is that hill sprints, rhythm work or speed variations would have a lower training load than a sub-t session. I understand that you don’t look at training through the same load lens that this thread does. That third session seems to be the real difference maker for the method. I’d be curious to hear you elaborate on this a bit more. That Wednesday session is obviously way less stressful than any VO2 work. But it’s also way less stress than a sub-t session and that is part of the issue.
I believe the answer that myself and others have settled upon is only swapping out the third sub T session for that speed dev day every 2 to 3 weeks.
For those who think this is too frequent I think it would work quite nicely to simply replace the monthly-bimonthly 5k TT / race with that day.
Personally I don't mind lowering the overall training load for that one week because I've found that treating every 2 to 3 weeks as a "down week" allows me to absorb the training better, even if I don't necessarily find myself needing to decrease.
I think the biggest question we keep coming back to is, how much does a variety of stimulus really matter concerning adaptation? Conventional training programs have always emphasized varying stimuli every so often to avoid stagnation. NSA seems to suggest that variety isn't as important as we thought.
I don’t have the academic chops to back and forth with the science minded folks here. In my two years of just doing the basic method, I’ve seen huge gains. I race road/xc/indoor/outdoor every year. I LOVE not periodizing my training, that was a forever hassle and I never got it right along with serious down sides. Now will I get beat by a peer here and there who did a specific build for one race, yeah totally. But I can race on a week’s notice at my top shape year round, no matter the discipline:800-10k, road/dirt/track. I view this as mutual fund investing. I’m buying the cheapest house on the nicest block. It’s the consistent safe play that is most likely to pay off. I’ve flown too close to the sun. It ain’t that fun.
Hi!! A little late to get around to this and for that I apologize. But I am "grandma's guy" and happy to answer any questions you all might have (if any).
Some details that haven't been mentioned (I don't think) -
sirpoc personally helped me step by step through the marathon block, giving constant feedback and answering questions. The plan was to follow his London build as closely as possible. I was around 8 weeks behind him in my build for Grandma's.
I have ran one marathon, but I was fried going into it and overestimated my fitness. I wanted to keep the dream alive with training and racing, so I forced it as a first year head coach, burning both ends of the candle. My first marathon was at CIM (worth noting this was the last chance for OTQ) and I came through half around 70 flat and finished in 2:38. Mileage peaked around 80 in the summer before I moved, and then dropped drastically when I moved to Arkansas due to heat + stress of the new job. I think I was running 55-65 on average for most of the build. The build was close to a standard marathon build with hard long runs but I supplemented it with heavy threshold volume. Looking back the T paces were probably too fast. I was always exhausted, even only running ~60 miles a week. Life stress (coaching stress) was likely a big contributor to this.
As for the "special block" - It was a blast. I felt so durable. Since it was only my second marathon and my first big training block since my massive break from running, I figured I had nothing to lose. A training plan that may or may not work, but will most likely keep me healthy. They say half the battle in the marathon is making it to the start line 1) healthy and 2) not overcooked. Worst case scenario I run a tiny PR since my debut was so rough. Nothing to lose, everything to gain. I did really love doing it though and felt really strong throughout the race itself.
Lastly, I have also had the chance to proofread sirpoc's book. He clearly has put a ridiculous amount of time into perfecting it, and I truly believe it will help loads of people. It's easily the most comprehensive training book I've read. You all are going to love it.
I believe the answer that myself and others have settled upon is only swapping out the third sub T session for that speed dev day every 2 to 3 weeks.
For those who think this is too frequent I think it would work quite nicely to simply replace the monthly-bimonthly 5k TT / race with that day.
Personally I don't mind lowering the overall training load for that one week because I've found that treating every 2 to 3 weeks as a "down week" allows me to absorb the training better, even if I don't necessarily find myself needing to decrease.
I think the biggest question we keep coming back to is, how much does a variety of stimulus really matter concerning adaptation? Conventional training programs have always emphasized varying stimuli every so often to avoid stagnation. NSA seems to suggest that variety isn't as important as we thought.
I don’t have the academic chops to back and forth with the science minded folks here. In my two years of just doing the basic method, I’ve seen huge gains. I race road/xc/indoor/outdoor every year. I LOVE not periodizing my training, that was a forever hassle and I never got it right along with serious down sides. Now will I get beat by a peer here and there who did a specific build for one race, yeah totally. But I can race on a week’s notice at my top shape year round, no matter the discipline:800-10k, road/dirt/track. I view this as mutual fund investing. I’m buying the cheapest house on the nicest block. It’s the consistent safe play that is most likely to pay off. I’ve flown too close to the sun. It ain’t that fun.
Totally fair. I definitely feel a bit out of my depth trying to discuss alongside Steve, but trying my best to offer my own experiences.
I get you on the being race ready year round with this approach: I know I can run within 3s of 800m PR shape at any time without getting anywhere near 58s 400m pace (save for strides).
I have a friend, 800m specialist who is way more talented than me speed wise - sub 50 open 400m speed vs my 54.mid. Last year he tried to focus on top end speed and race specific work during the early comp season and he ended up running slower than me by February.
Glad you're finding a lot of fun (and success) with the approach though. A few HS runners and friends have asked to be coached by me, and I'm definitely going to try applying my learnings from this method towards them when I get the chance to do so!
This post was edited 36 seconds after it was posted.
Hi!! A little late to get around to this and for that I apologize. But I am "grandma's guy" and happy to answer any questions you all might have (if any).
Some details that haven't been mentioned (I don't think) -
sirpoc personally helped me step by step through the marathon block, giving constant feedback and answering questions. The plan was to follow his London build as closely as possible. I was around 8 weeks behind him in my build for Grandma's.
I have ran one marathon, but I was fried going into it and overestimated my fitness. I wanted to keep the dream alive with training and racing, so I forced it as a first year head coach, burning both ends of the candle. My first marathon was at CIM (worth noting this was the last chance for OTQ) and I came through half around 70 flat and finished in 2:38. Mileage peaked around 80 in the summer before I moved, and then dropped drastically when I moved to Arkansas due to heat + stress of the new job. I think I was running 55-65 on average for most of the build. The build was close to a standard marathon build with hard long runs but I supplemented it with heavy threshold volume. Looking back the T paces were probably too fast. I was always exhausted, even only running ~60 miles a week. Life stress (coaching stress) was likely a big contributor to this.
As for the "special block" - It was a blast. I felt so durable. Since it was only my second marathon and my first big training block since my massive break from running, I figured I had nothing to lose. A training plan that may or may not work, but will most likely keep me healthy. They say half the battle in the marathon is making it to the start line 1) healthy and 2) not overcooked. Worst case scenario I run a tiny PR since my debut was so rough. Nothing to lose, everything to gain. I did really love doing it though and felt really strong throughout the race itself.
Lastly, I have also had the chance to proofread sirpoc's book. He clearly has put a ridiculous amount of time into perfecting it, and I truly believe it will help loads of people. It's easily the most comprehensive training book I've read. You all are going to love it.
I hope he prices it appropriately, and doesn’t under sell himself.
I don’t have the academic chops to back and forth with the science minded folks here. In my two years of just doing the basic method, I’ve seen huge gains. I race road/xc/indoor/outdoor every year. I LOVE not periodizing my training, that was a forever hassle and I never got it right along with serious down sides. Now will I get beat by a peer here and there who did a specific build for one race, yeah totally. But I can race on a week’s notice at my top shape year round, no matter the discipline:800-10k, road/dirt/track. I view this as mutual fund investing. I’m buying the cheapest house on the nicest block. It’s the consistent safe play that is most likely to pay off. I’ve flown too close to the sun. It ain’t that fun.
Totally fair. I definitely feel a bit out of my depth trying to discuss alongside Steve, but trying my best to offer my own experiences.
I get you on the being race ready year round with this approach: I know I can run within 3s of 800m PR shape at any time without getting anywhere near 58s 400m pace (save for strides).
I have a friend, 800m specialist who is way more talented than me speed wise - sub 50 open 400m speed vs my 54.mid. Last year he tried to focus on top end speed and race specific work during the early comp season and he ended up running slower than me by February.
Glad you're finding a lot of fun (and success) with the approach though. A few HS runners and friends have asked to be coached by me, and I'm definitely going to try applying my learnings from this method towards them when I get the chance to do so!
At the very least those hs kids will likely have fewer injuries and potentially view their time running more favorably. Hopefully offering a chance for lifelong enjoyment of the sport.
This could be: -15min split LT, 3-4min rest, 6x200 at 3k pace -20min split @ MP, 5min rest, 4-6xHS -10min LT, 4x30sec hill charges, 10min LT - 4x45sec @ 8k pace, 15min @ sub LT, 4x30sec @ 5k -4 sets of (5min @ LT, 45sec rest, 1min @ 10k)
I know you said that you don't subscribe to training load theory, but all of these have a very low TSS compared to any of Sirpoc's workouts and some of them would be more fatiguing also.
It's great to suggest these but I think this gets to the core of the debate. For one, it's not clear how to progress some of these other than to go faster on the reps. Something like Jakob's 20-25x400m probably makes more sense than a lot of these workouts -- still a decent pace with moderate fatigue and high TSS that is easily extended.
I am an example of one but I tried the by the book Sirpoc training for a year and have now been adding in speed dev on Monday’s and swapping the Saturday sub t for 12-26x200 for the last 6-8 months. I really think the traditional way works wonders and it got me crazy aerobic strong but I wasn’t racing well. I’ve had more success by some margin using the X factor workout and short hill sprints and strides after easy runs. Again, I am a sample size of 1 and have always been more FT and struggled as the distance went up.
So the beauty for me is that this great program is widely available and easy to implement. And if the by the book method works awesome for you, you should absolutely keep doing it. And vice versa if you got a little experimental and it clicked for you.
Second change: I'd periodize things. Again, if we care about racing to our near max performance, then everything points towards slightly sharpening up in a safe way. History tells us that, elites tell us that, physiology tells us that...But what we know, again from elites, to physiology to history, is that it's easier to maintain something than build it up. ....It's why as an elite runner if you throw down a crazy fast half-marathon 3-4 weeks before a marathon, you're probably going to struggle a bit on the marathon because your fuel system is running too hot. ....But there's a reason that many many elites have moved towards combo workouts to maintain and shift the stimulus over the last 20 years or so.
I can't say I care in the least what elite athletes do or find it remotely applicable to my own training, beyond that they, too, run. I'm a late 30s hobby jogger working 50 hours and spending maybe 6 hours of training a week. One of the most useful insights of NSM to me is that training for those in my position isn't "scaled down elite training for the less talented", it's fundamentally different - I get more marginal benefit from a "fitness gained per minute" perspective focusing on aerobic rather than anaerobic development. So I should focus on that. That doesn't mean the latter is worthless or doesn't have value to anyone at anytime, it's that the relative value is lower for me and where I'm at.
I don't see NSM as arguing "this is the best way to train for world class results" - it's not! It's "this is an approach to maximize long term development for older hobby joggers doing consistently 4.5-8 hours a week and 8-10 races per year with no specific key race". If that's not you or your athlete, that's 100% ok, but I don't see much point in critiquing it for failing to deliver against something that was never the intent. I judge a Michelin starred French restaurant's wine list, not McDonalds.
Some great debate. What I find quite interesting is the guys who are really pretty darn fast like sirpoc himself, wigglewaffle and cheetodust (great to have these guys in the thread now) are the ones who keep it the most basic. Almost seems to go against what some people are saying in that it provides a good starting point but then you need to add speed.
Probably doesn't tell us much, but it's definitely interesting. I know John Whelan I think touched upon it.
I do appreciate Steve coming to the thread, but the more he posts the more I think he actually doesn't understand where this is coming from. He's seen a catchy answer misleading name and he's viewers have asked and he's dived in head fiest.
The more I think about it, I mean why would he? I doubt he's scratched the surface and you would actually need to understand a hell of a lot about some of the stuff Coggan has written in the past and of course cycling training as a whole. Obviously all training is similar in aerobic sports, but this definitely leans still way more towards an indefinite cycling base winter.
Hi!! A little late to get around to this and for that I apologize. But I am "grandma's guy" and happy to answer any questions you all might have (if any).
Some details that haven't been mentioned (I don't think) -
sirpoc personally helped me step by step through the marathon block, giving constant feedback and answering questions. The plan was to follow his London build as closely as possible. I was around 8 weeks behind him in my build for Grandma's.
I have ran one marathon, but I was fried going into it and overestimated my fitness. I wanted to keep the dream alive with training and racing, so I forced it as a first year head coach, burning both ends of the candle. My first marathon was at CIM (worth noting this was the last chance for OTQ) and I came through half around 70 flat and finished in 2:38. Mileage peaked around 80 in the summer before I moved, and then dropped drastically when I moved to Arkansas due to heat + stress of the new job. I think I was running 55-65 on average for most of the build. The build was close to a standard marathon build with hard long runs but I supplemented it with heavy threshold volume. Looking back the T paces were probably too fast. I was always exhausted, even only running ~60 miles a week. Life stress (coaching stress) was likely a big contributor to this.
As for the "special block" - It was a blast. I felt so durable. Since it was only my second marathon and my first big training block since my massive break from running, I figured I had nothing to lose. A training plan that may or may not work, but will most likely keep me healthy. They say half the battle in the marathon is making it to the start line 1) healthy and 2) not overcooked. Worst case scenario I run a tiny PR since my debut was so rough. Nothing to lose, everything to gain. I did really love doing it though and felt really strong throughout the race itself.
Lastly, I have also had the chance to proofread sirpoc's book. He clearly has put a ridiculous amount of time into perfecting it, and I truly believe it will help loads of people. It's easily the most comprehensive training book I've read. You all are going to love it.
Your marathon was superb. It is probably the best one so far given the conditions? I'm sure you guys have analysed it. That time on that day was hell of impressive. You must have at least 5 maybe even 10 mins more in you on a good day. Sub 2:20 I would predict. Your mileage was hardly anything. Crazy amount of bang for your buck.
Are you doing another marathon? Can I ask if you and sirpoc have come up with anything new? Or is it another case of if it's not broke, don't fix it?
I think if outsiders saw you guys marathon build and asked them to predict times they would have gou around 3 hours. I only ask and being greedy as have you guys here, because I'm planning on running another next year and want to get on the new bandwagon early, if there is one!
I don’t have the academic chops to back and forth with the science minded folks here. In my two years of just doing the basic method, I’ve seen huge gains. I race road/xc/indoor/outdoor every year. I LOVE not periodizing my training, that was a forever hassle and I never got it right along with serious down sides. Now will I get beat by a peer here and there who did a specific build for one race, yeah totally. But I can race on a week’s notice at my top shape year round, no matter the discipline:800-10k, road/dirt/track. I view this as mutual fund investing. I’m buying the cheapest house on the nicest block. It’s the consistent safe play that is most likely to pay off. I’ve flown too close to the sun. It ain’t that fun.
OK I am going to be really greedy now and ask another NSM HOF'r in the hope I can get some extra information.
I know you have run sub 15k off vanilla, quite comfortably under. But what do you think you are leaving on the table with no specificity? Seconds? I will probs Lt never focus on one event, but I have had good success in a mile right up to the top end, but like you I have just plugged myself in and most of my times are in line. Probably won't bother with specificity as i love like you say that I can just go into any race. But i wondered really what you think. We are all talking about sprinkling in this, that as a debate but what really will it bring us? Aside from a bit of potential in balance and risk . But what actually do you think the reward is?
No offense to Steve, but I'm not quite sure really where he's coming from at this point. If he wasn't Magness and this was lexel saying this stuff, he would be downvoted to oblivion as a lot of it is very contradictory. Anyway, just a small side note.
Biggest addition to the latest debate I hope that doesn't get lost is cheetodust and wigglewaffle. I hope you stick around and share what you can over the coming weeks, months years.
I don't think folk quite realise what experiene these guys have in running. Not to dox anyway or anything, but to have them tell us they are basically sold on vanilla is a big deal in my mind.
Also, I think again not to dox anyone, but shout out to chillruns? I believe from seeing the Strava group and putting 2+2 together with your posts you are also due a huge congrats with a quite staggering 5k PB considering your starting point.
Steve, the only reason to shift the stimulus is psychological. The people who want to add things are bored and yea when you coach people this is something you need to take into consideration. But physiologically, I would challenge the statement you made that people can and do improve as much under other systems as they do with NSM or that “touching on everything” is the optimal way to train for 5K-M. We can’t use high school runners here because anything they do will make them better. What’s remarkable about NSM is the number of runners who have been training their entire lives (20+years) under Daniels, Lydiard, Igloi, Canova, Coe, etc, etc…and then switched to NSM and hit lifetime bests at ages they have no business doing so.
No offense to Steve, but I'm not quite sure really where he's coming from at this point. If he wasn't Magness and this was lexel saying this stuff, he would be downvoted to oblivion as a lot of it is very contradictory. Anyway, just a small side note.
Of course he he would. This is a cult where disagreements and critical thinking isn't allowed after all.
With the usual caveat that I’m sure this has been discussed at some point in this thread, anyone have success with this method who was mainly already focused on purely aerobic work?
As context, I’m a late to life hobbyjogger who found pretty good success with mainly Daniel’s 2Q marathon training, doing big threshold work on Wednesday and big M pace work on Saturday. I found myself getting banged up with 5k work so I’d always just replaced that with threshold work instead. Sometimes I’d touch on CV pace. Went from 1:30HM to 1:19Hm.
Then I stagnated. I think it’s most likely the 2 workouts, although only twice a week, left me drained and in a hole, even though I convinced myself otherwise. Also, I really surprised myself with the 1:19 HM. I’d gotten there thru pretty manageable threshold paces. It was only after my PB that I told myself I now had to train with faster threshold paces because i was now a “faster” runner. Ironically I got the 1:19 paces running 1:21 paces but then stagnated when training at 1:19 pace.
Back to the original question, if you’ve had success, would you says it’s because of the increased frequency (3x per week vs 2x) or more manageable paces or both?
No offense to Steve, but I'm not quite sure really where he's coming from at this point. If he wasn't Magness and this was lexel saying this stuff, he would be downvoted to oblivion as a lot of it is very contradictory. Anyway, just a small side note.
Of course he he would. This is a cult where disagreements and critical thinking isn't allowed after all.
In scoring one for the ‘cult’ look at the example of Kristian Ulriksen today in Berlin:
Coached BY Canova directly
Had a beautiful buildup with amazing workouts and volume that you’d think would lead to an amazing peak with Canova style periodization, probably ran 5:00 slower than his previous PR
Was really rooting for the guy to do great but the overall program was probably just too much
I feel like cyclists have the right approach to this mentally talking between ‘mere mortals’ and pro tour level. It’s probably because of the time in the week needed ppl can more easily put ‘what the elites are doing’ straight away out of their minds
I don’t have the academic chops to back and forth with the science minded folks here. In my two years of just doing the basic method, I’ve seen huge gains. I race road/xc/indoor/outdoor every year. I LOVE not periodizing my training, that was a forever hassle and I never got it right along with serious down sides. Now will I get beat by a peer here and there who did a specific build for one race, yeah totally. But I can race on a week’s notice at my top shape year round, no matter the discipline:800-10k, road/dirt/track. I view this as mutual fund investing. I’m buying the cheapest house on the nicest block. It’s the consistent safe play that is most likely to pay off. I’ve flown too close to the sun. It ain’t that fun.
OK I am going to be really greedy now and ask another NSM HOF'r in the hope I can get some extra information.
I know you have run sub 15k off vanilla, quite comfortably under. But what do you think you are leaving on the table with no specificity? Seconds? I will probs Lt never focus on one event, but I have had good success in a mile right up to the top end, but like you I have just plugged myself in and most of my times are in line. Probably won't bother with specificity as i love like you say that I can just go into any race. But i wondered really what you think. We are all talking about sprinkling in this, that as a debate but what really will it bring us? Aside from a bit of potential in balance and risk . But what actually do you think the reward is?
That’s an interesting question. My lifetime pb is 35s quicker but I was running bigger volume and way faster work at the time. I was also 28 and hurt all the time. When I broke 15 this summer, my splits were dead on even with a quick last lap. Historically I was often dropped from races that had a steady honest pace from the gun. So I’m not even sure swapping in specific work might help me in the +/- sense. I might be trading strength for a kick that’s mostly still there. If I get x% better in the aerobic sense, judging by negative split races, long surges, even splits…., I just don’t think I’m going to get that same % gain in foot speed if I focus on it. I know there’s all that cult talk but I’ve had no massive injuries (jinx) and continue to pile this safe amount of work on top of months on years. Maybe I don’t care about specific races as much as I used to. My take on the NSA approach is more holistic minded. Like no other time has my confidence been this steady around training and racing. I get really pumped when I’m cruising a ‘vanilla’ session and just ticking off reps. When it’s time to race I don’t need to worry if I’ll be able to call on myself to push the back half. It’s way more fun for someone who really is drawn to the racing aspect of running.
I believe the answer that myself and others have settled upon is only swapping out the third sub T session for that speed dev day every 2 to 3 weeks.
For those who think this is too frequent I think it would work quite nicely to simply replace the monthly-bimonthly 5k TT / race with that day.
Personally I don't mind lowering the overall training load for that one week because I've found that treating every 2 to 3 weeks as a "down week" allows me to absorb the training better, even if I don't necessarily find myself needing to decrease.
I think the biggest question we keep coming back to is, how much does a variety of stimulus really matter concerning adaptation? Conventional training programs have always emphasized varying stimuli every so often to avoid stagnation. NSA seems to suggest that variety isn't as important as we thought.
The reason I asked the question is because it’s still unclear. I get that this is getting into the weeds and comes down to how people use different terminology but you mentioned swapping out the third sub-t day for “that speed dev day.” The way I define speed development is something like would be described in the “5 x 60m all out” thread or short 6-8s hill sprints with full recovery. That’s very different from what Jakob does, the 20 x 200m hills where you are really pushing it. That’s also different from Steve’s previously described 16 x 200m rhythm workout (meant to be not as hard the 200m hills). My point is, others have already said that this day really hasn’t helped them and they revert back to the third sub-t session. I mean, a 43 year old dude ran a 4:20 mile and 2:00 800 off the vanilla approach, presumably with no strides, weight lifting or race specific work at all.
Not being sarcastic, which dude are you referring to here? Is it in the strava group or something/someone else?
Hi!! A little late to get around to this and for that I apologize. But I am "grandma's guy" and happy to answer any questions you all might have (if any).
Some details that haven't been mentioned (I don't think) -
sirpoc personally helped me step by step through the marathon block, giving constant feedback and answering questions. The plan was to follow his London build as closely as possible. I was around 8 weeks behind him in my build for Grandma's.
I have ran one marathon, but I was fried going into it and overestimated my fitness. I wanted to keep the dream alive with training and racing, so I forced it as a first year head coach, burning both ends of the candle. My first marathon was at CIM (worth noting this was the last chance for OTQ) and I came through half around 70 flat and finished in 2:38. Mileage peaked around 80 in the summer before I moved, and then dropped drastically when I moved to Arkansas due to heat + stress of the new job. I think I was running 55-65 on average for most of the build. The build was close to a standard marathon build with hard long runs but I supplemented it with heavy threshold volume. Looking back the T paces were probably too fast. I was always exhausted, even only running ~60 miles a week. Life stress (coaching stress) was likely a big contributor to this.
As for the "special block" - It was a blast. I felt so durable. Since it was only my second marathon and my first big training block since my massive break from running, I figured I had nothing to lose. A training plan that may or may not work, but will most likely keep me healthy. They say half the battle in the marathon is making it to the start line 1) healthy and 2) not overcooked. Worst case scenario I run a tiny PR since my debut was so rough. Nothing to lose, everything to gain. I did really love doing it though and felt really strong throughout the race itself.
Lastly, I have also had the chance to proofread sirpoc's book. He clearly has put a ridiculous amount of time into perfecting it, and I truly believe it will help loads of people. It's easily the most comprehensive training book I've read. You all are going to love it.
Thanks for posting, saw your recap on Reddit about Grandma's but I never assumed you'd be on LRC so it's good to hear from you! (Surprisingly, not all runners on reddit have heard of or are familiar with this site).
No offense to Steve, but I'm not quite sure really where he's coming from at this point. If he wasn't Magness and this was lexel saying this stuff, he would be downvoted to oblivion as a lot of it is very contradictory. Anyway, just a small side note.
Of course he he would. This is a cult where disagreements and critical thinking isn't allowed after all.
It could be reputation-based too...Steve has a good rep.
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