Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

That's why I don't have a coach now :)

Look, I love alternation workouts and they had huge bang for the buck as one of the standard workouts in several build-ups, but I was doing things like 1000-1200m @ MP+5-10 seconds/400m @ 10K, and even then I would blow up after 6-8 reps. The workouts you're describing are basically impossible.

5 x 2K @ HMP/1K @ MP averages out to 14K (over 8.5 miles) slightly slower (6 seconds/km, 10 seconds/mile) than HMP. That's a near-race effort as a steady run, but as alternations? Not gonna happen. "Not very demanding," you say? Then you dramatically underperformed in your races compared to your fitness. And 3 x 3K at 10K pace? Fantasy land.

If you're going to give NSA a try, do NSA. See how the program works and figure out what's sustainable for you, 3 times a week, week after week, before you get creative. If you need variety, change up your routes, not the basic workout structure.

Do you race on hills? Then do some workouts over a hilly route. Why would anyone ever intentionally run on gravel?

100% agree. I look forward to the sessions but also either 1) run with friends or a group for my easy runs, or 2) if a solo easy run, try to go out on an interesting route or easy trail to help break up the monotony.

Helps me recharge a bit mentally and remind myself this is still a hobby after all (even if we're all competing, if only within our own goals/expectations).

I agree 100% that they were race efforts, and indeed I never performed better in races compared to these "crazy" workouts. All my best runs were training runs, and at some point I would always get injured or overtrained. To expand on this, I think these workouts are the consequence of a very bad way of translating sessions for "pros" to sessions for someone in the 39-40 minutes for 10k range (myself). My coach was a 29:00 10k runner, but let's assume 30:00 for convenience. He would do 12-14k at 3:15 (10k pace +15s) and call it a "medio". This is 40:00 of work at slower than his HM pace. For me, he would prescribe 12-14k at 4:15 (10k pace +15s), which is now around 50' at my HM pace o slightly faster. So the same "medio" session would become a race for myself, while being much more manageable for someone his level.

But that's another topic of discussion. Thanks for the suggestions on how to make it less boring :)

New thread for the Greek Ultra Approach?

You want us to go Greek?

Greek singles is 2 hour runs every day with sub threshold every second day mixed into those 2 hour runs - plus a 3 hour run on weekends. But then there is cycling and elliptical in evenings. This is half marathon training though not for ultras. Volume needs to be increased more for an ultra.

Greek singles is more like run a bunch of miles where the easy is too fast and the subT is too slow, rinse and repeat every day until injury/burnout.

Nah just let him continue posting in NSA.

Completely unrelated, I've joined a college track group and 3 times weekly I'll be asking them for feedback on my HM training plan/what's the best gels for long run fuelling and then screaming about how I hate 800m races when they suggest I go elsewhere.

Sounds about right for the classic Spanish athletics coaching lol

"If I got to a 30-minute 10K with this training, it's obviously the best and should work for everyone"

They all tend to be absolutely run into the ground by their 40s (for the lucky ones that at least made it that far) and blame it on anything other than the training being plain idiotic.

One question about easy pace. The latest information I have is to just focus on the HR to be below 70% maxHR. What if you don't know your maxHR but only know your LTHR? Can the limit also be defined in regards to LTHR?

Strongly recommend reading this article. This talks extensively about how the pros train and their easy pace relative to race pace.

pluttrell3.wixsite.com

Mistake #1: Running Too Fast On Easy Days

Paul Luttrell

Recreational runners perform their easy runs at a much higher relative intensity than elites. A look at why this isn't a winning strategy.

Link:pluttrell3.wixsite.com/train-of-though...

Bottom line is that professionals are running very slow (60-70% of their 10k race pace) on their easy days.

If you don't know maxHR, just run a 3K or 5K race or TT, and measure your HR at the end of it. it should be a good enough approximation for the purpose of setting your easy pace.

Also don't be gready with it. I'd rather do real work in sub-T sessions than going too fast in easy miles.

Well did you tell the college group repeatedly that you just started running 18 months ago? Did they know you were a couch potato before jumping to 100 miles per week? Make sure to ignore any suggestions, they just don’t get you.

I do most of my intervals on light gravel forest paths. I know the surface and undulating grades are slower than flat roads, so I try to stay at the slower end of the pace ranges, if not 2-5% slower.

I'm finding I need to be closer to 40% 10k race pace to stay below 70% MHR, based on vdot conversions from a 5k and the runningwritings pace percentage calculator. Is there such a thing as too slow? I'd rather be safe than sorry at least

Nevermind I should've read the article, it is roughly 60% 10k race pace using his way of calculating percentages

I'm gonna be kind of annoying and ask why this approach even includes long runs. If one isn't training for a race longer than a 10k, there aren't any race specific adaptations.

Jakob only runs 60-70 minute long runs, and at what other point in this method are amateurs encouraged to do more than pros? Compared to Jingy, easy run intensity is equally low, threshold volume is in around the same proportion to mileage, and mileage and threshold volume are obviously less overall. Also, entire sessions like the X-Factor workout or lifting are completely removed.

So why, if one isn't training for a race that involves glycogen depletion, would the long run be, not the same volume, but actually more volume than what Jingy does? Why would we be doing more than a man that is only able to run the volume and intensity he is now because he was abused as a child?

It seems borderline superstitious, and is just a huge pain in the ass if someone doesn't want to run 7 days a week (alternatives are combining long run and threshold, taking a day off between workouts -- which doesn't work well for everyone -- or sandwiching the long run between threshold days which can't be a good idea).

My understanding of endurance (which I’m associating with the long run for the purpose of this post) is it the is not just being able to race longer distances or complete bigger long runs in training. Those adaptations and increased endurance also allows you to do more “work” in sessions. So, progression from 8x1k to 10x1k without the session deteriorating.

I don’t see a 75-90 minute long(er) run as being too different to the other easy runs during the week if they are around 60 minutes. If you are training for the shorter distance races and capping the long runs 60 minutes is the difference between you being consistent or not, do it.