Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

Wanted to know the threads thoughts on using HRV and resting heart rate. When resting heart rate is low, and HRV is high, and the inverse was true a couple weeks ago, does that mean that two weeks ago was too much and I’m now training at a more optimal level, or does it mean that I can and should slightly increase my training load. Also, my legs feel great, and HRV and resting heart rate are at levels comparable to when I’m taking a 1-2 weeks break, while two weeks ago they were at concerning levels. I still haven’t built to full NSA yet, but what I’ve been doing for a couple weeks is a steep increase from what I did the month before.

Progress report!

20:44 - 18:43 in 8 months.

Background:
30yo male, 6'1, 84kg/185lb

Was a naturally decent runner when younger, especially sprinting, but never trained as a runner, just played sports.

From age ~24-28 I trained/competed in Powerlifting and did zero cardio, was about 94kg.
Then completely 180'd and took up running in 2023. I had a goal of running a 50k mountain-y trail run at the end of the year, so slowly trained towards that. Did lots of quality work though, and in hindsight, was absolutely throttling myself on workouts. Managed to keep mostly healthy though. I did a 5k in August 2023 in 22:01.

The first half of 2024 I pulled right back and was just running ~15-20k a week.
In June '24 I ran a 10k in 49:46 that just about killed me. And in August I ran a 5k in 21:40, just before I found NSA.

NSA
Then, I found the LetsRun thread and begun slowly building up to 6x runs per week and three workouts a week. I was very cautious of injury, so probably took it easier than I needed. I started with just one workout a week whilst I built my base, then added a 2nd (slowly), and then it wasn't until December 2024 that I started "full" NSA. Up to this time though I still made some solid progress, running 20:44 in November 2024.

Since the start of this year, I've been much more consistent; the last few months even more so. Really heading the advice of the big man and hitting my K's, week after week.
I've started racing much more, too, trying to get something in every month.
Progress has exceeded my expectations. I just ran 18:43 on the weekend; so about 2 minutes faster than 8 months ago.

Clear progression below:
Aug 2024: 21:40
Oct: 21:01
Nov: 20:44
Dec: 21:53 (tried to run sub 20 but it was too hot and just not fit enough, ended up jogging it in) *full NSA begins*
Feb 2025: 20:15
April: 19:41
May: 19:35
June: 19:13
July: 18:43

I currently run 6x per week, and am going to start sprinkling in a 7th.
My workouts are the classic 10x3, 5x6, 3x10 (with 1', 1'20", and 1'40" rest [feels right]). My LTHR is 183 based on 30m Friels. A conservative workout tops out at 177, and a very aggressive one at 183. I osccilate between those depending on vibes, and tend to naturally periodise that over weeks (e.g., have a week where I'm a little more on the aggressive end, and then a couple where I keep it chill - that might align with pace changes too...once I get to the more conservative end of a given pace, I'll up the pace, irrespective of whether I have a new race PR to be guided by).

I run my easy runs v easy, around 5:40 - 6:20m per km, (or 9 - 10m per mile). This hasn't improved a tonne, nor does it bother me. I'd run them at 8 min per k if I knew it made my times faster come race day. I don't truly know my max HR but I estimate about 200, and so try to stay under 145 (72.5% max), let it drift a little if uphill.

Workouts and Autoregulation
When I first came to running from Powerlifting, I was quite confused by how running training programs tended to work. Workout prescription often felt random and haphazardous to me.
The way I trained via powerlifting was using RPE, and very consistent blocks of work. For example, Squat 3x5 @RPE 8, and do that 4-5 weeks in a row, then deload.
This was simple.
You squat to that effort that day (with RPE being a proxy for reps in reserve, so RPE 8 meant you could have done 2 more reps), then next week you plan for a slightly heavier weight, but let RPE guide you; if your warm ups are slow, you pull back, if you feel good, you add more weight - all that matters is that you get the stimulus of the prescribed sets/reps/RPE. Training like this, it was very, very easy to get stronger. Provided you rocked up, did the work as prescribed, and rested and recovered enough, you got stronger like clockwork.

With traditional running programs, it struck me that there wasn't as much inbuilt tracking as to where you were. Workouts differed a lot, the intensity was often vague, etc etc.

This is where I think NSA shines and how I've used it to my benefit. I have my prescribed paces; the paces I expect to be able to hit based on recent progress. But then I use HR and feel to guide whether I push or pull those paces. If I can clearly see on one day that my HR is trending lower than a normal session, I'll naturally up the paces as the workout goes on, ensuring I still stay a bit under my threshold cap by the end. Conversely, if life's been busy, I'm underslept, and my HR is higher than normal on my first rep, I'll pull the paces back for that day and get the stimulus I'm after.

Much like powerlifting, it's very clear whether progress is happening or not. My paces start improving for the same HR/effort. And because they improve, it's also much easier to pace well in my racing. If my paces have improved 5-10s in workouts since my last race, I know I can expect a big performance jump, and so pace accordingly.

Injury talk
I've had no injuries but two minor niggles earlier this year, both were a feeling of shin splints. I immediately took action (pulling back on intensity, doing slightly graded stuff on treadmill, more calf work) and both times they resolved within a week. Interestingly, at this time I was doing strides a couple times a week. After the second scare, I thought "f it, I'm going to fully commit to nothing additional", and haven't done strides since (except for maybe 2-3 the day before a race to get a bit of turnover, nothing crazy). Body has felt perfectly healthy since. Yesterday, I kicked very hard (last k was 3:32, and last 200 was 36.9s) so it doesn't seem to have had any noticable negative impact omitting the strides.

Otherwise, in general, I feel fresh and good to go. Motivation is high and I look forward to my workouts.
I still strength train on average about 1x per week for health reasons. I squat deep and relatively heavy in that session (3x5 @100-120kg / 220 - 265lb, which is around RPE 7--8), and do a couple of upper body exercises, and one calf exercise.

Future
I've got a 10k next weekend, and a half marathon in a couple of months, too. All very exciting.

I have total faith that (for the next little while) I will simply keep getting faster provided I continue providing the consistent stimulus, week after week. It's exhilirating.

We have a baby on the way in December, so I'll be pulling back on training once they come, so trying to make the most of running til then by nailing my training and racing lots. Would love to crack sub 18 by the end of the year.

Thanks for everyone's contributions. I've loved this little corner of the internet and the sensible and methodical approach to training. It's simple, repeatable, and effective. Honestly, it's also pretty damn easy, in the sense that you never have to go to the well in workouts. On my most tired days, I'm still fine to train. Without thrashing myself at all, with no deload, the times just keep coming down...wild!

I've almost completely stopped following the strava group because of all the nonsense. Unfortunately I have to check occasionally in case sirpoc posts something new, but usually it's just filled with more nonsense. That guy in particular is very annoying, he never has a point and just wants to be adulated for his mileage.

The guy who posts looking g do or feedback then dismissed all the feedback he is given? Long runs of 2 hours fasted with sub threshold thrown in multiple times a week then wonders why he’s tired?

Mate you don’t need to engage with obvious trolls. Just ignore.

What exactly is unbelievable about this?

Anecdotally, as someone who also has a solid strength training history (weightlifting and powerlifting), this approach is very much the kind of thing that would turn abstract concepts of proper training into something more concrete. The workouts mirror a "daily undulating periodization" approach that used to be popular in powerlifting.

Doing more frequency as an approach to increase training load while making individual workouts easier funnily enough mirrors the "Norwegian Frequency Project" in powerlifting, which was responsible for getting strength athletes to train at lower session loads with higher frequency to accumulate training load in a way that can feel easier.

It doesn't surprise me at all that a former powerlifter (especially one who spent enough time in the sport to work based on RPE instead of percentages) would find this to be a motivating and effective framework to slowly push up training load.

Sitrun - nice post.

One question for you: you lost 10kg since your lifting days. How much do you think losing weight factored in to your improvement from 20:44 to 18:43? Did you lose a fair amount in the last 8 months or was it all before that?

I bring this up because I wonder if a lot of guys in the 20+ minute range should focus more on body composition than the “perfect” workout structure. I know sirpoc improved a ton without losing weight, but he was already tiny.

Just keep an eye on RHR and HRV when increasing intensity or mileage.

They may shoot up to start but then settle down. There are also external factors like work stress or weather to think about.

After track season, I’m going to give this approach a try to increase my aerobic capacity. I’ve read some but not all of thread and tried searching but still have questions

1) how do I choose the sub threshold paces? historically my performances drop off starting at the mile all the way to the marathon and I haven’t raced anything longer than 5k in quite a while. I used to have an LT of about 160-162 which might have dropped and I’m not sure of my max heart rate. I feel like 130 is about my aerobic threshold.
2) what’s a usual amount of pacing or park runs people do? these are obviously not sub threshold efforts.
3) does anyone use the Garmin acute and chronic load measures? If so, what values do people end up with following this training?

Ben is Running us injured. Get well soon Ben.xxx

The 10kg was lost in 2023 so nah I dont think that's a factor. I would actually like to lose more, but it would obviously mean reducing my calories and I don't really want to flirt with the injury risk (I could do it very methodically to avoid that, a minor deficit over time, but I just CBF).

I make sure I eat a tonne of carbs. I had to really consciously increase this when I looked up the recommendations for endurance (and I was already a big eater coming from a perma-bulk of my powerlifting days) - aim for about 450g a day which feels absurd. I think this has really helped in rarely feeling tired from training and recovering well, too, fwiw. I imagine many runners chronically undereat and wouldn't even realise it.

these times will seem crazy slow but they are probably very accurate and I’ve crossed checked them with mid distance oriented pro runners that test lactate

1) What's your current 5K fitness? That's sufficient for picking workout paces. Start off a bit slower than the specified paces while you get a sense of what you can actually recover from while doing 3 sub-T workouts a week.

2) Once every month or two? Whenever there's a race on the calendar? Racing is good, and at one point some people thought that 5K races were a special "X factor/vO2max" stimulus, but my guess is that now races are seen as more of an interruption to consistent training. I don't think there's any consensus on this point. You should definitely race, but it's probably not the secret sauce.

3) I don't think anyone has mentioned Garmin, but it seems like the values would be all over the place depending on the individual runner and their weekly volume.

1. 5k current pace is 6:40, but I can’t run the equivalent 10k pace and so on. On the road, I use 7:20 for 10k/threshold work but sometimes that feels too hard. I guess I could really low ball the 10k, hm, easy paces.

2. what I was getting at is that if someone races twice and month and another person doesn’t race at all, those are different situations. maybe it doesn’t matter either way to this approach.

3. I think the Garmin load measurements are probably similar measures to those discussed and the load ratio useful. I’m at 523 Acute/ 591 chronic for a 0.8 ratio (I’m tapering). Last fall when I bumped my mileage up I was at 1109/894.

It's a great thread, and while I don't follow NSM, I do learn from it.

Due to time constraints I can only run 4 (rarely 5) times a week. The last three months (after a March 30 marathon) I've upped my mileage.

I run 3 easy days : Tuesday 9 miles - Friday 10 miles - Sunday 14 miles. My easy runs are longer than what is recommended in NSM but this is necessary for me to up my volume of easy runs. I did learn to run my easy runs easier, i.e. 5:30min/km instead of of 5:10 (in 2024 39:08 10k aged 50). It's really easy, somewhat more shuffling than before. The workout on Thursday is 2x2k at marathon pace with one minute rest, for a total of 9 miles. As Sirpoc once replied to me, marathon pace for 2k is slower than recommended, but it is probably still in the useful subthreshold range.

This 45 mpw is a step-up from 38-40mpw which I used to do. I abandoned strides, no speed work. I did run some 5k races every 3 weeks.

With just two and a half months of this NSM-inspired training I lowered my 10k PR to 38:41, running a lot faster in this race than I ever did in training.

So wait, I’m confused. You run 3 easy days a week, and one quality day that’s not recommended by sirpoc beyond being blessed as not actually useless? What was your takeaway from this thread? Run your easy runs slower?

You do you, but I’d suggest that if you can only run 4 days a week, run the 3 quality sessions and 1 long run. Or, if some of those sessions have to be back-to-back, do quality-easy-quality.

Anything else is selling yourself short - we’re not your coaches and I’m not going to tell you how to train, but three easy runs a week and 4ks at marathon pace is going to lead to total plateau very quickly.

Given my age I'm injury-prone, and the way for me to improve is more easy miles. This makes it necessary to run them slower. I have to avoid HM pace or faster in training, so I stick to marathon pace in my workout.

TBH, I don't think the workout is the main driver of my better performance, it was upping the mileage. And yes, running your easy runs easy is not unique to NSM, but running both easy runs and workouts in a controlled way is a key element.

I don't know if I would be faster if I followed your suggestion of 3 quality sessions and one long run each week. But I do know for sure that it would me take less than two weeks to get a calf strain or worse if I did that.

I don't do NSM nor do I pretend I do. I would say my training is NSM-inspired at most. So I thanks everybody for the inpiration !