The T cream experiment is intriguing. There was a rumor that this was how Landis tested positive in 2006 after receiving a post-race massage or drink. Is it possible that Salazar - in a fit of paranoia - decided to experiment with one of his kids to see where the limit was? I guess I'd want to know where it was if I were him.
rekrunner wrote:
What did you think if the AAA panel's stated opinions?
USADA must have been disappointed given what they asked.
Armstronglivs wrote:
I don't think the USADA found Salazar's violations "underwhelming" - and nor, I would think, has Salazar - as he has been kicked out of the sport for 4 years. No athletes are permitted to associate with him. Disgrace is so "underwhelming".
Yes, let's hope Usada appeals that decision.
COSman wrote:
The T cream experiment is intriguing. There was a rumor that this was how Landis tested positive in 2006 after receiving a post-race massage or drink. Is it possible that Salazar - in a fit of paranoia - decided to experiment with one of his kids to see where the limit was? I guess I'd want to know where it was if I were him.
Have you read any news articles or the report at all?
That is 100% his defense (and Brown's). The communications with Parker and Brown confirm that, but of course if Salazar is a smooth criminal those emails could have been sent to make a paper trail so that if he got charged he could make a claim he was doing it to protect against sabotage. However, the one piece of evidence that made me think he really wasn't concerned was that when Brown asked him if he wanted to continue the experiments to see where exactly the line was, there is an email from Salazar that essentially says "no, who cares where the limit is, we've proven you would need a ton of androgel for it to be a problem, and if someone tried to surreptitiously rub that much on one of our athletes, we'd know." Then he has emails instructing the female athletes (who would need less to test positive) to wear long sleeve shirts. So.
Jack Frost wrote:
Rojo- let's be clear on what Testoboost is. Giant horse sized vitamin pills. It is not testosterone or anything resembling something than a giant multivitamin.
Come on. You don’t seriously STILL believe Sleazy Sal? He CLAIMED that Rupp was taking Testoboost instead of Testosterone after that photo was released. Sleazy Sal was lying. We know of Sleazy Sal’s experiments with AndroGel, and if Rupp was really taking Testoboost, the records would say that. It seems pretty obvious that Rupp was, in fact, given testosterone. Sleazy Sal’s story was just a lame cover-up attempt.
LoneStarXC wrote:
Jack Frost wrote:
Rojo- let's be clear on what Testoboost is. Giant horse sized vitamin pills. It is not testosterone or anything resembling something than a giant multivitamin.
Come on. You don’t seriously STILL believe Sleazy Sal? He CLAIMED that Rupp was taking Testoboost instead of Testosterone after that photo was released. Sleazy Sal was lying. We know of Sleazy Sal’s experiments with AndroGel, and if Rupp was really taking Testoboost, the records would say that. It seems pretty obvious that Rupp was, in fact, given testosterone. Sleazy Sal’s story was just a lame cover-up attempt.
Man it could be either way. Salazar was obsessed with supplements and had his athletes on tons of them, most which probably had zero effect on performance. He wanted to do all the little things a lot of coaches ignore (or can't afford): supplements, altitude tents, underwater treadmills, all that crap.
I wouldn't be surprised if Rupp was actually on testosterone medication (which would be easy to prove if so), but also wouldn't be surprised if his medical provider didn't know what testo boost was or got lazy when writing his/her note. They have a lot of patients. They make little errors like that all the time.
Jesus H.
That photo is of a chart from 2002? I wonder what the relevant statute limits are on investigating a 15/16 year old's medical records but I doubt his parents were letting him take exogenous testosterone. They have said that never happened. Not to mention the ethical breach of someone taking a photo of a 15/16 year old's medical chart and then leaking it.
But, yeah, this giant conspiracy to do diddly-squat outside of the actual legal limits exists and justifies the exposing of such by any means possible.
AreWeTheBaddies? wrote:
I really wonder if those joining the NOP knew that there was this dark cloud hanging around the group. Then I remember that their uniform has skulls on them, it's pretty obvious they aren't the good guys. I don't feel bad for any of his athletes.
Reminds me of this hilarious sketch:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hn1VxaMEjRU
Thank you for this video! It is hilarious!!!
And, yes NOP w/their skulls are the BADDIES.
Creaky Bones wrote:
COSman wrote:
The T cream experiment is intriguing. There was a rumor that this was how Landis tested positive in 2006 after receiving a post-race massage or drink. Is it possible that Salazar - in a fit of paranoia - decided to experiment with one of his kids to see where the limit was? I guess I'd want to know where it was if I were him.
Have you read any news articles or the report at all?
That is 100% his defense (and Brown's). The communications with Parker and Brown confirm that, but of course if Salazar is a smooth criminal those emails could have been sent to make a paper trail so that if he got charged he could make a claim he was doing it to protect against sabotage. However, the one piece of evidence that made me think he really wasn't concerned was that when Brown asked him if he wanted to continue the experiments to see where exactly the line was, there is an email from Salazar that essentially says "no, who cares where the limit is, we've proven you would need a ton of androgel for it to be a problem, and if someone tried to surreptitiously rub that much on one of our athletes, we'd know." Then he has emails instructing the female athletes (who would need less to test positive) to wear long sleeve shirts. So.
Nope, but there you go. I guessed right.
My statement remains correct. Rupp started taking testosterone medication at a young age, shortly after beginning to be coached by Salazar.
rojo wrote:
123rti wrote:
Rojo - if you believe number 3 (after this has been proven false over and over and over and over again)...........I have some oceanfront property in Kansas for you.
Yes I believe it. How has it bee proven false and false? What do you think this is?
https://www.letsrun.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/20150603-bbc-nike-lab-doc-3-6301.jpgThat seemes to prove it to be true. Are you claiming Magness doctored that photo?
Rojo, I don't think it's been proven false. However, testosterone medication can be many things, there are all kinds of alleged testosterone supplements out there that are perfectly legal (most are hocus pocus claims that don't show results) and we have no idea what "testosterone medication" means and whether it was legal.
Does it look bad? Absolutely. But to go from that to Salazar is doping Rupp is one helluva big jump.
Your ignorance is bliss wrote:
My statement remains correct. Rupp started taking testosterone medication at a young age, shortly after beginning to be coached by Salazar.
Unless you consider a supplement to be medication, your statement assumes that the doctor did not err, or did not intend to refer to testo boost when writing his note. That's a big assumption in my view.
The statement of undisputed fact would be that "Rupp's medical charts indicate he as taking testosterone at a young age, shortly after beginning to be coached by Salazar." Doesn't mean he actually was. As was already said above, doctor notes are not always the most precise.
Creaky Bones wrote:
They won't read far enough to see what the actual decision was, and the excuse of "we were trying to see if we were sabotaged!" will look absurd on its face.
It is going to look absurd on its face because it is absurd on its face.
rojo wrote:
duhhzzz wrote:
"One of the big winners here are the NOP athletes, where there is no finding that any NOP athlete took any banned substance to enhance there performance." This is the elephant in the room - why is everyone (particularly Rojo) ignoring this? Years of investigation yielded zero new findings and a love letter about how much Al Sal cared for his athletes and constantly checked in with USADA?
I don't think they are big winners. They'd be big winners if Salazar wasn't sanctioned at all.
I mean look at Dibaba, she's never been charged and yet half the board can't stand her and think she's a doper.
But I'm not ignoring that. I've believed all a long that ban of Salazar but no athletes is not satifsying at all.
Why? I don't think you're a fan of Salazar or most NOP athletes and I think this colors your judgement. Example number one is why do you think that a ban of Salazar, but not athletes, not satisfying at all. I find it 100% satisfying.
Why? Because it was Salazar, not athletes, who commited doping violations. If anything, they are less tainted, as the primary findings of the two arbitration panels was that Salazar didn't do anything nefarious with his athletes, he crossed the line doing testing with people like Magness or his son, in order to ensure he was compliant with the rules.
As arbitration sees it, and they are privy to more evidence than we are, they were highly impressed with how careful Salazar was being to ensure he did not engage in doping whatsoever. Ironically, in his care to ensure his athletes weren't cheating, he broke WADA (and legal?) rules himself, thus the ban.
I'm baffled at how anyone thinks this taints the group. Arbitrations decision makes NOP athletes look much better. Before we had just a bunch of shady evidence. Now we have arbitration saying that after ALL the evidence and testimony they were privy to they were thoroughly impressed by Salazar's determination to ensure his athlete were not cheating.
Have you read the statement? The conclusion is that Salazar wasn't just trying to be clean, he was trying to be ABSOLUTELY SURE he was coaching within the bounds of the rules. He was doing far more to protect his athletes than most coaches were.
Salazar surely broke anti-doping rules, and deserves his ban; but he also looks like a better coach and person (honestly he is still an a$$hole though in my mind) who was going above and beyond to make sure his athletes were NOT cheating. That there coach was so aggressively pursuing and pushing for that absolutely makes it less likely his athletes did not then self-dope due to the culture he created.
v678 wrote:
Your ignorance is bliss wrote:
My statement remains correct. Rupp started taking testosterone medication at a young age, shortly after beginning to be coached by Salazar.
Unless you consider a supplement to be medication, your statement assumes that the doctor did not err, or did not intend to refer to testo boost when writing his note. That's a big assumption in my view.
The statement of undisputed fact would be that "Rupp's medical charts indicate he as taking testosterone at a young age, shortly after beginning to be coached by Salazar." Doesn't mean he actually was. As was already said above, doctor notes are not always the most precise.
Smh. The chart literally says testosterone medication. There is nothing false in my statement. Nothing even misleading.
don't be an idiot wrote:
Creaky Bones wrote:
They won't read far enough to see what the actual decision was, and the excuse of "we were trying to see if we were sabotaged!" will look absurd on its face.
It is going to look absurd on its face because it is absurd on its face.
Agreed to some extent, but it was basically undisputed by all that Salazar was extremely concerned about sabotage--not just in that instance, but in general--and the emails confirm that he specifically told Brown that he didn't care to continue the experiment to see where the "line" was because he was content that given how much gel would need to be applied, sabotage was basically impossible. It was also undisputed that the incident happened after Rupp thought that Whetstone had rubbed stuff on him, and it was undisputed that he sent out a team-wide email asking people to be careful about people rubbing stuff on them, that he had them all dump out their water bottles if they left them unattended, etc. etc. etc.
So it's absurd for a number of reasons, in particular because Salazar is a paranoid moron, but when all the facts come out about his paranoia it makes his side of the story seem way more credible. Of course, it could be that Salazar knew if someone found out about it later, it would look odd, and thus purposefully created a paper trail, and purposefully coordinated the email where he said he didn't need to see where the line was (knowing he could still apply a decent amount of androgel to athletes). That doesn't explain the general paranoia and water bottles, but would explain the rest.
Still, that would mean his serious crime would be massage rubs to Galen Rupp to a level that created a change that wasn't detectable or over any legal limits anyway. Cheating? Yes. But still less dramatic cheating than I would have guessed from NOP.
The more likely scenario to me seems to be that Salazar is just not all that smart and is actually paranoid and OCD.
Creaky Bones wrote:
don't be an idiot wrote:
It is going to look absurd on its face because it is absurd on its face.
Agreed to some extent, but it was basically undisputed by all that Salazar was extremely concerned about sabotage--not just in that instance, but in general--and the emails confirm that he specifically told Brown that he didn't care to continue the experiment to see where the "line" was because he was content that given how much gel would need to be applied, sabotage was basically impossible. It was also undisputed that the incident happened after Rupp thought that Whetstone had rubbed stuff on him, and it was undisputed that he sent out a team-wide email asking people to be careful about people rubbing stuff on them, that he had them all dump out their water bottles if they left them unattended, etc. etc. etc.
So it's absurd for a number of reasons, in particular because Salazar is a paranoid moron, but when all the facts come out about his paranoia it makes his side of the story seem way more credible. Of course, it could be that Salazar knew if someone found out about it later, it would look odd, and thus purposefully created a paper trail, and purposefully coordinated the email where he said he didn't need to see where the line was (knowing he could still apply a decent amount of androgel to athletes). That doesn't explain the general paranoia and water bottles, but would explain the rest.
Still, that would mean his serious crime would be massage rubs to Galen Rupp to a level that created a change that wasn't detectable or over any legal limits anyway. Cheating? Yes. But still less dramatic cheating than I would have guessed from NOP.
The more likely scenario to me seems to be that Salazar is just not all that smart and is actually paranoid and OCD.
This. 'Great summary,
I think the main issue here is with the conclusion. There is lots of sketchy information and pictures and hearsay. However, there are a vocal number of posters who are stating confidently they feel Salazar athletes were doping. I object to that conclusion.
There is only really any particularly bad evidence for Rupp, with the testosterone, and even that is a legitimate debate because there are tons of things that could be "testosterone medication" that are 100% legal.
Beyond that, it's all hearsay and claims of Salazar testing infusions and products on NOT his athletes. Notice lots of athletes came forward, but none of them suggested Salazar doped them, even the ones with the biggest axes to grind.
Most importantly, at the end of the day, the arbitration panels (two iirc) had access to FAR more evidence and testimony than we did. Both panels concluded the same thing: Salazar was trying so hard to be ethical and ensure his athletes were following the rules that he f*cked up and crossed the line himself, committing doping violations.
If you think Salazar's athletes are surely doped you either think:
1) Salazar doped his athletes
2) Salazar's athletes consistently self dope without their coach knowing
For #1, the arbitration panel, with more evidence than we have, came to the exact opposite conclusion and were outright impressed his Salazar's drive to ensure his athletes were ethical and legal.
Which boils it down to the final question if you're firmly in the "they were doping camp": What makes you think that, with far less evidence, you're much more likely to be correct than two separate arbitration panels having access to greater evidence and testimony presenting a much more informed view of the situation than any of us on this site?
That's a big claim. Where's the confidence in it coming?
Your ignorance is bliss wrote:Smh. The chart literally says testosterone medication. There is nothing false in my statement. Nothing even misleading.
Maybe not false, but presumptuous, because it could have been imprecision or a mistake in the medical chart.
If I go to the doctor and report to them that I am taking an inhaled cortisteroid for asthma, and they write down "taking a an oral steroid," it could either be imprecision or an error on the part of the provider, as while an inhaled corticosteroid is a steroid you technically take orally, it is not an oral steroid. If someone stated that "v678 has been taking an oral steroid since a young age," as fact, it wouldn't be true.
Is it possible that Rupp was taking actual testosterone? Sure. But that's contrary to his testimony and the testimony of his parents, and would be a pretty crazy thing to do to a 15 year old, and they've offered a reasonable explanation for the mix-up, so I'd like to believe that at least his parents aren't that stupid. But of course it's possible.
A panel wouldn't be able to find Genzebe Dibaba or El Guerrouj guilty of doping. Do you believe them to be clean?
Creaky Bones wrote:
don't be an idiot wrote:
It is going to look absurd on its face because it is absurd on its face.
Agreed to some extent, but it was basically undisputed by all that Salazar was extremely concerned about sabotage--not just in that instance, but in general--and the emails confirm that he specifically told Brown that he didn't care to continue the experiment to see where the "line" was because he was content that given how much gel would need to be applied, sabotage was basically impossible. It was also undisputed that the incident happened after Rupp thought that Whetstone had rubbed stuff on him, and it was undisputed that he sent out a team-wide email asking people to be careful about people rubbing stuff on them, that he had them all dump out their water bottles if they left them unattended, etc. etc. etc.
So it's absurd for a number of reasons, in particular because Salazar is a paranoid moron, but when all the facts come out about his paranoia it makes his side of the story seem way more credible. Of course, it could be that Salazar knew if someone found out about it later, it would look odd, and thus purposefully created a paper trail, and purposefully coordinated the email where he said he didn't need to see where the line was (knowing he could still apply a decent amount of androgel to athletes). That doesn't explain the general paranoia and water bottles, but would explain the rest.
Still, that would mean his serious crime would be massage rubs to Galen Rupp to a level that created a change that wasn't detectable or over any legal limits anyway. Cheating? Yes. But still less dramatic cheating than I would have guessed from NOP.
The more likely scenario to me seems to be that Salazar is just not all that smart and is actually paranoid and OCD.
Exactly.
If we knew nothing of Salazar his "but I'm worried about sabatoge" would be a massive AF collective eye roll. Most people would never have this idea even occur to them.
Salazar however, is not most people. He has a long history of paranoia and other behavior. It's a strong fit for his personality. He's a uniquely paranoid individual. Add to that:
- testosterone testing didn't start until AFTER the whetstone incident and Rupp's concern (who we know Salazar is HUGELY protective of)
- sent out emails that showed concern for the possibility of rubbing sabatoge
- gave zero sh1ts about where the "line" of how much he could get away was. He stopped the second he realized rubbing wasn't going to do anything to bring his athletes near the limit
Taken together, with Salazar's personality, this lines up 100%. It fits. Moreover, it doesn't fit well at all with a "Salazar is doping" intention. Why would Salazar not care until Rupp freaked out about being rubbed? Why would he send emails concerned about rubbing? Most importantly, if he wanted to push the limits, why would he stop the second he knew rubbing wasn't going to cause sabotage?
The explanation of "It was Salazar paranoia" fits the story and his personality. The alternate explanation is a huge stretch, and requires Salazar to be a genius of the highest order, cleverly waiting or orchestrating the right "rubbing moment" to begin a whole stretch of pretend paranoia in order to allow him a cover story for testing cream. Honestly...that's borderline conspiracy level sh1t, and while a good coach Salazar has never given any indication of the unbelievable level of ingenuity and cleverness it would even take to orchestrate such a thing.
