The emperor has no clothes: Jemima Sumgong has tested positive for EPO!!!

Do you know how ridiculous all of you sound?!

One minute you're praising Kipchoge for coming close to 2 hours in the marathon. With the next breath you are saying that Kipchoge could have gained 1-2% and then run 1:59:12 with EPO. This is just crazy talk with too much bro science.

We need to stop all this speculation and then support all the clean athletes that are inspiring people to live a healthy life.

Aragon wrote:

You seem to be convinced that all of Mourhit's improvement was PED-fueled, but apparently even you have troubles really establishing just exactly when this "high responder" succumbed to rEPO-use.

This is how I see the issue.

Mourhit's 1991 time 3:37.73 for 1500m is roughly equivalent of 13:20 for 5000m. When we keep this in mind and compare the 1991 time to his PBs, his "improvement" is around 4 %. How much of that is PED-fueled is another matter, because:

Steve Cram 1500m pb 3:29 5000m pb 13:28

Steve Ovett 3:30, 13:20

Nick Willis 3:29, 13:20

His 3:37 is indicative of good potential but his endurance & economy may have totally sucked and he needed epo to remedy this for the step up.

.

I don't think you can see the forest through the trees. Mourhit had a ~5% improvement from 13:46 to 13:05 in less than a year (1996-97). This suggests when he initiated a high-octane program (unless you think he started on the rocket fuel within a few months or so within his 2002 positive).

The "hypothesized" remark on his first race back from suspension was in reference to a very slow 13:44, compared to his sub-13's that he was running pre-ban. I expected he would run a little faster than that. Maybe that's the high-octane hangover when one returns from their ban and attempts to race clean 😄. But a year later he shaves 30 plus seconds off that time...so maybe he went back on the fuel.

On your obsession with the "short leg phenomenon:" Where was his short leg phenomenon back in 91 when he ran the 3:56 mile that you touted him as being so talented? Didn't seem to be an issue then. And you're oblivious to the fact of Mourhit's 141 lbs on a small frame (5' 7") running two sub-13's. He's only 1 of 2 runners at 140 lbs or heavier to ever run a sub-13. As I mentioned, that's a lot of weight Mourhit has packed on his short frame to be running world-class times without his EPO assistance.

Ramzi didn't improve from 2001-2002...he regressed! His improvement from 2002 to 2004 was ~6%. And your inability to understand the significance of his off-scores shows how you're dismissing the IAAF report on Ramzi's blood values during the 05 WCs; 157.8 is Shobukhova-style doping 😄.

That's such BS. Really? Proof of doping doesn't distract from the discussion unless the you're trying to frame the argument from the standpoint that EPO has little or no effect on elites, which seems be your MO throughout this, and other discussions. In essence, if you have an athlete with sufficient proof of doping, and there's significant & marked increases in their times, how can anyone arbitrarily rule-out doping as being a key factor in their improvements? You simply provide a lot of disinformation & rationalization based your pre-conceived beliefs...no surprises there.

Your fallacy bleeds into the reasoning process, into notions of arrogance, into your need to identify yourselve with your grandiose position on this subject. 😬

Real World Analysis wrote:

Your fallacy bleeds into the reasoning process, into notions of arrogance, into your need to identify yourselve with your grandiose position on this subject. 😬

Your sample of 1 guy is ridiculous. There are many unknown factors that can possibly affect performance. Race conditions, injury, diet, etc. Mourhit may have simply reached his prime years between ages 26 and 30.

Nobody has a straight trajectory of improvements. There are peaks and valleys. I bet your own race times have been up and down over the past few years.

This is so unfair. You cherrypick the few but then leave an overhanging suspicion cast over the many, clean athletes that have competed.

You don't have any scientist or doctor who will back you up with the idea that "Mourhit is a cheater because he improved his times within 2 years".

""We will start appealing the decision and I would not be surprised if this ends up at the International Sports Tribunal in Lausanne," said Spreutels.

He added that the Belgian federation made serious procedural mistakes in the Mourhit case."

If they made errors, then that testing could have been false positives. In which case your entire argument fails.

good wiggler wrote:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/athletics/2167970.stm

""We will start appealing the decision and I would not be surprised if this ends up at the International Sports Tribunal in Lausanne," said Spreutels.

He added that the Belgian federation made serious procedural mistakes in the Mourhit case."

If they made errors, then that testing could have been false positives. In which case your entire argument fails.

What? Are you misinformed? He decided not to appeal the decision. He served a two

(2) year ban for doping:

Both Mouhrit and Ramzi were doped. This is something everybody in the circuit knew, and their ban was the logic consequence of this fact.

However, when we discuss HOW MUCH IMPROVEMENT the assumption of EPO produced, the most part of posters continue to do the same mistake, connecting everything with doping only.

In the case of Mouhrit, Aragon is correct. He had 4 years with very little training, trying to solve the problem of one leg shorter of 3 cm than the other, and went around all Europe for finding some doctor able to solve the problem.

Only in 1999, he could find a solution, with a new type of shoes, not including a plantar (orthosis) inside, but build for him after an individual project. The shoe used for the foot of the shorter leg had a higher sole, made with flexible material, and finally he started running with his barycentre well balanced, without rolling while running as before that year.

About Ramzi, he had two years without any motivation and with very little training, before the offer to change citizenship becoming Bahraini. When Bahrain decided to look at foreigner athletes for creating their National Team, the first step was to look at runners Arabic speaking, so they went to contact Maroccan of second level. Ramzi, followed by Khalid Boulami, had for the first time a salary, and the opportunity to become a "professional" runner. For that reason, he started training very hard, twice every day, when before had no more than 5 sessions per week.

So, no doubt they used doping, but. when we want to quantify the improvement due to EPO, we must not forget the personal history of everybody, and the big improvement in training, the most part of cases not connected with the assumption of some doping, but with the change in motivation and opportunities.

Also doped athletes are individuals, with feeling, and problems, like every other person, and the most part of improvement (or falls in results) is due to different conditions of life, that we must not ignore.

good wiggler wrote:

You shouldn't just blame all Kenyans just because of this one test.

No...of course not. Just because there's been 42 doping positives among Kenyan runners since 2011, and allegations of widespread corruption, all is well & good over there. OTOH, lets just blame all Russians for their country's doping problems, and go as far as banning them from Rio. Of course, let the fan-favorite Kenyans complete because doping is ineffective on their physiology than it is with the Russian athletes 😉

good wiggler wrote:

In this event, the EPO wouldn't have had any effect on an elite African runner.

How do you know that EPO wouldn't have "any effect on an elite African runner?" And does the same apply to a Russian runner or racewalker? What about a Turk? A Spaniard? An American? If you and some others on this issue know for a FACT that EPO is ineffective with elite African runners, then contact WADA and urge them to reclassify EPO from the PROHIBITED list to the MONITORING list, exclusively for only elite African runners 👌

The idea that 'EPO does not work' is a very popular idea with Italian coaches.

For example:

The Italians are not doing that well in Anti-Doping Rule Violations (ADRV):

ha ha ha

rekrunner wrote:

When you read this thread and others, everyone else describes EPO as a “game changer”, or as a “high octane” drug, or talk about the "synergistic effects" of “EPO + steroids” in “high responders”.

Lance describes EPO as a "high octane-game changer." He says a "10%" across the board increase in performance, and mentions that it makes no difference whether it's cycling, track & field, etc. Who would have the expertise and experience with EPO better than LA? He doesn't say that through proper training at altitude, using supplements, having a stronger mind and all that stuff, that he could have improved so dramatically without EPO. Here's a presentation he gave at a sports governance class at Colorado University last year. The talk on the EPO is right at the beginning of presentation:

[quote]Cycling is in the Air wrote:

More fascinating info on EPO with Lance (3:15 into the presentation). He describes EPO as the "perfect drug."

https://youtu.be/fshoz6cnKPY

Update Dr. Michele Ferrari (Italy):

Dr. Michele Ferrari receives a suspended 18 month prison sentence and pays a small fine to WADA in 2017:

http://fasterskier.com/fsarticle/taschlers-ferrari-sentenced-high-profile-biathlon-doping-case/

The court also found Ferrari in violation, and fined him 4,500 Euros with 18 months of imprisonment, during which time he is not allowed to work as a doctor. Like the Taschlers, Ferrari saw his prison sentence suspended. He was also, however, ordered to pay a 15,000 Euro fine to the World Anti-Doping Agency.

Ferrari has been implicated in many doping scandals, most visibly in cycling; he worked with disgraced American cyclist Lance Armstrong, among others. He is serving a lifetime ban against working with the Italian cycling federation. This is the first time he has been convicted of a crime since doping became a criminal offense in Italy in 2000.

The court gave him a fine of $4,500 and a fine of $15,000 to WADA.

Wow.

This will finally give Dr. Michele Ferrari some tough punishment for doping!!!

Take that Dr. Ferrari!!!

Oh boy.

From a comment at the bottom of this article:

To take this further with Ferrari, these were the 'who is who' of professional cycling in the last two or three decades, according to Daily Peloton (2006): Lance Armstrong, Michael Rogers, Alexander Vinokourov, Michele Scarponi, Denis Menchov, Giovanni Visconti, Yaroslav Popovych, Alessandro Bertolini, Gianluca Bortolami, Gianni Bugno, Mario Cipollini, Claudio Chiappucci, Roman Kreuziger, Cadel Evans, Armand de Las Cuevas, Fernando Escartín, Gianni Faresin, Giorgio Furlan, Ivan Gotti, Andreas Kappes, Kevin Livingston, Eddy Mazzoleni, Axel Merckx, Thomas Dekker, Abraham Olano, Daniele Pontoni, Tony Rominger, Paolo Savoldelli, Filippo Simeoni, Pavel Tonkov, Enrico Zaina and Beat Zberg.

http://www.dailypeloton.com/displayarticle.asp?pk=10163

Ferrari was a pupil of Francesco Conconi, a professor at the University of Ferrara who introduced EPO to pro cycling in the 1980's. Among Conconi's well known clients were former cross country ski giants: Marco Albarello, Maurilio De Zolt, Manuela Di Centa, Giorgio Vanzetta and Silvio Fauner.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francesco_Conconi

Kari-Pekka Kyro, the former head coach of the Finnish xc ski team when the famous "Lahti 6" happened, was working with Ferrari and the Finns were said to have ushered in the use of EPO in xc skiing in the mid 80's. Kyro helped coach Anne Kylloenen a few years ago. Another Finnish coach of the 90's, Pekka Vähäsöyrinki, became the new personal coach of Kerttu Niskanen and Juho Mikkonen:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BSHCUtUgJHt/

All the top coaches, apart from Kyro, are back working with some of the top skiers/biathletes in Finland at the moment:

Jarmo Punkkinen: Kaisa Mäkäräinen

Antti Leppävuori: Finnish national biathlon team

Jarmo Riski: Sami Jauhojärvi (and still consulting Aino-Kaisa Saarinen)

Pekka Vähäsöyrinki: Ari Luusua, Kerttu Niskanen, Juho Mikkonen

And to finish off with Ferrari, the Padova investigation that looked into doping and criminal activity in Italian sport and foreign athletes working with Ferrari and others, closed in the Summer of 2015 without sanctions:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/.../report-padova.../

I suppose the Taschlers were small fish compared to professional cycling and money it generates and they were left to dry, despite Gottlieb's high ranking within the IBU. Not the first time professional athletes and those associated with them in the South Tyrol have been embroiled in doping scandals and it certainly won't be the last.

They are doped too. USA Kid got a TUE for HGH, since he's more than 2 sigma below his nominal height.

Lydiard is God wrote:

Much more fun watching the kids.

Does EPO usage make your hairline resemble Kobe Bryant's hairline?

[quote]Laura.Muir.Flagstaff.Run.Teamâ„¢ wrote:

The idea that 'EPO does not work' is a very popular idea with Italian coaches.

For example:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ferrari-armstrong-could-have-reached-the-same-level-without-doping/

What a joke...sounds like he's doing the back peddle shuffle. I just posted a video of Armstrong's presentation at CU where he explains that he boosted his performance 10% with "high-octane" doping. So, Armstrong pays Ferrari a million bucks for overseeing his program and this is how Ferrari thanks him by trying to make look like an idiot that he could competed and won clean against the other dopers 😅😄😁

Cycling is in the Air wrote:

[quote]Laura.Muir.Flagstaff.Run.Teamâ„¢ wrote:

The idea that 'EPO does not work' is a very popular idea with Italian coaches.

For example:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/ferrari-armstrong-could-have-reached-the-same-level-without-doping/

What a joke...sounds like he's doing the back peddle shuffle. I just posted a video of Armstrong's presentation at CU where he explains that he boosted his performance 10% with "high-octane" doping. So, Armstrong pays Ferrari a million bucks for overseeing his program and this is how Ferrari thanks him by trying to make look like an idiot that he could competed and won clean against the other dopers 😅😄😁

If EPO doesn't work, literally billions have been wasted on the stuff unnecessarily.

Curious: How did everybody in the circuit know Ramzi & Mourhit were doped? Was it their improvement in performance that was suspicious? Did any information leak out as to who their doping sources were? Just wondering what was so obvious about these two.

What do you mean "connecting everything with doping only?" For those athletes that pursue doping, wouldn't PEDs be a key component to their overall program of hard training, dietary principles, cross training, etc? For example, Lance Armstrong trained like a madman, was meticulous with his diet and paid strict attention to his equipment. However, he has said that he couldn't have trained at that level and have been competitive without the use of PEDs. What's the difference with runners who have reached their natural limits of training and use PEDs to go beyond those barriers to be competitive?

Curious: Once he got this orthopedic issues corrected, do you think he could have run those sub-13's without using EPO? Once he got the problem corrected and he could train properly, why would he resort to PEDs if he's naturally talented enough to achieve his impressive results clean? Curious what your thoughts are on this.

Question: If Ramzi was training so very hard and is such a natural talent, why in the world did he use CERA? CERA is a 3rd gen potent EPO that only requires once or twice a month dosing for target Hct levels (btw, a few cyclists also got popped for it in 09). As you know, Ramzi's IC sample from Beijing tested positive in Feb/09 when Roach pharmaceuticals assisted WADA in identifying the molecule. It's clear Ramzi was glowing in Beijing when he won gold. Do you think he could have accomplished his gold winning performance without the use of CERA? If his natural ability and new found training that he discovered years earlier allowed him to accomplish all he has done, then why in the heck would he throw it all away on EPO? His positive test had catastrophic consequences; stripped of his Olympic gold and forever embedded in T&F's Hall of Shame. "If" EPO has a marginal effect on elite athletes, as postulated by some experts here, is Ramzi that stupid for taking it and/or his coach(s)/doping doctor(s) that dumb in advising him to take it?

This is the part that's most perplexing. There has been literally dozens & dozens of EPO positives over the last decade and a half in athletics alone. There's three generations of EPO (e.g., Epogen, ARANESP & CERA) that have been used over the years by numerous athletes from all endurance sports. In fact, there were three CERA positives alone on the eve of the Rio games (a cyclists, swimmer & runner). And Sumgong just recently tested positive for EPO. So, high-octane doping is clearly out there in athletics, cycling & even swimming.

So, why have elite athletes from all spectrums of endurance sports taken, and continue to take a PED that purportedly has very little effect on their performance? And the doping doctors in this equation? Surely, they have reviewed all the scientific literature on 02-vector doping, as well as the plethora of anecdotal evidence that exists. Why were they advising, and some continue to advise, athletes on 02-vector doping? Both Ferrari & Conconi were obsessed with 02-vector doping. Fuentes ran a blood bank & PED clinic that serviced dozens of athletes. They must have be convinced from the anecdotal evidence that EPO provides a significant benefit with elites. Otherwise, if the risk of getting caught far outweighs any potential benefit, why do athletes continue to use EPO?

Endurance Sport Doping wrote:

There has been literally dozens & dozens of EPO positives over the last decade and a half in athletics alone. There's three generations of EPO (e.g., Epogen, ARANESP & CERA) that have been used over the years by numerous athletes from all endurance sports. In fact, there were three CERA positives alone on the eve of the Rio games (a cyclists, swimmer & runner). And Sumgong just recently tested positive for EPO. So, high-octane doping is clearly out there in athletics, cycling & even swimming.

Both Ferrari & Conconi were obsessed with 02-vector doping. Fuentes ran a blood bank & PED clinic that serviced dozens of athletes. They must have be convinced from the anecdotal evidence that EPO provides a significant benefit with elites.

Obviously. The athletes and their coaches continue to notice enhanced performance in training while using EPO, and thusly continue using it despite the low risk of getting detected in OOC tests. They don't listen to the letsrun trolls. In the worst case scenario, the athletes can always escape from the testers, e.g. through the security of an airport or by not hearing the doorbell, and their NADO will treat that as an inadvertently missed test.