Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

Are you tracking your load anywhere? If you do, did it drastically change when you went from your previous training to NSA? That could explain why you have more fatigue, if you do more work without building up to it.

When it's really hot out, do you guys just go by RPE or heart rate instead of by pace?

Asking because I have to do my runs in the middle of the day, and that's meant eighties or nineties for most of July.

Yesterday the heat broke, and we were down to low seventies, which meant I was hitting a bit faster than marathon pace for my 3x12' and still staying 10-15BPM below LTHR.

How do you guys make sure you're hitting the right intensity depending on heat?

Consider also external/environmental stresses. That is, weather, sleep, nutrition, occupational, etc. Not everything needs to be perfect, but if any/multiple of those are higher than usual, give yourself some time for those to resolve and ease off a bit. Also, keep in mind those calculated paces are just guidelines, so RPE may be guardrails for you at this time.

I've all but given up on this method once heat and humidity became a factor. I just end up being so wiped and tired, even from easy running, when it is 70-80F degrees at 7 am with 70-78F dew points consistently (mid-Atlantic US). Whereas Sirpoc runs in perfect temps year round. Conditions are a big factor.

I monitor HR. I'm a little more willing to let it run higher on the easy runs (figuring the heat rather than the effort is driving HR up), but keep the pace a bit slower on the subT, as it's quite a bit more exhausting in the heat, even at slightly lower HR values.

The UK does not have "perfect temps year round" - it gets very cold in the winter, with ice and snow which is untreated and then the summer can be humid. The wind is also a huge factor.

You need to run to your conditions. Slow it down.

It doesn't matter if you're running Norwegian singles, Pfitz, JD or just all easy running, you're still having to run in the same conditions, just slow it down and learn about RPE

Bakken was also a 5000m runner whereas sirp is doing longer stuff primarily. Much like sirp subbed in 5k reps to prepare for the marathon, it would make sense to sub in 45/15 or similar efforts if you have a schedule primarily 5ks or below

Eat a banana? If gels cost too much, go with your favorite energy drink. It'll still cost you something, but maybe not as much as a gel. Or maybe look at cheaper gels (you can get SIS gels for $1, and they go down easy).

I'm in Houston and, believe me, one of least heat tolerant runners you'll find. I've actually been having one of best summers of running since moving to this swamp, doing 3 subT's per week (Saturday is long/subT combo). I take Sunday as a rest day. I have applied a 5% slowing to all of my paces, including easy, and also letting RPE be my biggest guide. I also contribute it to being much more aggressive with hydration and electrolyte intake. I'm up and out the door by 5 a.m., so I don't run in the sun at all really. I'm on-pace to have my best summer month mileage-wise here as well. So...it can be done, but it takes some preparation and the realization that recovery is an every day thing this time of year. Good luck with things - I get it.

Yeah I think the actual advantage of FT type is that we have the benefits of sprint training or heavy lifting without doing the training (or that we can develop these things quickly and then maintain them with little or no training). If you look at true ST distance runners, even elites, when they're lifting "heavy" or "sprinting", it's not hard for a FT hobby sprinter to match or exceed the weight they're moving or the top speed they're hitting.

It makes me wonder about meeting certain standards. How fast should we be able to sprint? How heavy should we lift? If we're already far exceeding those standards, is there any point in training it further? Muscle biopsies show that we can alter our muscle fibers through training. I believe if we keep doing FT training, that'll prevent us from maximizing our ST genetic potential. As FT road runners our top priority should be to prioritize ST development (though on the track, which means all youth / collegiate athletes, FT training is still essential - look at Grant Fisher as a model. If you're not developing a kick, you're not a serious competitor. You may win local/regional meets easily, but nationally or in D1, you'll lose every race to people who let you lead and then outkick you. Or you can just become a marathoner right after you graduate - that's cool too).

I never heard anyone specifically advocating against FT training before the purists in this thread. Though here it's more like "sprinting and heavy lifting and plyos aren't worth our time", not that they're actively harmful for some runners. Many pages ago, I upset the purists by suggesting that these things would be improvements to the method because I've seen the studies where total training volume is reduced and these things are added and RE and time trial performance improve. I still think a ST runner who is undeveloped in these areas will benefit from these things. In just 8-10 weeks there are observable gains. Long term, they can maintain the gains with much less time and effort. (I also respect the choice to keep your training simpler and ignore this.)

But a FT runner might benefit from de-emphasizing or entirely abolishing these things. Not only because they are likely inhibiting ST growth, but because FT training is more fatiguing the better you are at it (up to a point). Which can make ST / aerobic training suffer.

Strength training -- Theoretically, if you're weak, your running benefits the most from building strength (heavy weight, low reps). But there must be some amount of strength for each person when this is no longer the case. Once you have achieved that level of strength, you benefit more from increasing endurance than increasing strength. So instead of adding weight, you now decrease the weight a little bit and increase reps so that it's no longer a FT exercise. 10 reps at a minimum but 15-20 would be better. Maybe a really ST runner doing a ton of running volume never manages to achieve that level of strength so they do low rep strength training their entire careers. But a FT athlete, especially one who prioritized strength training for some in their life, might be the opposite - already exceeding the strength standards and ought to reduce weight and increase reps immediately. One exception to this might be calves - our RE might benefit from perpetual low rep training and as a smaller muscle group it shouldn't be too fatiguing, so it feels low risk high reward.

Plyos -- Split plyos into two categories: short ground contact time and long ground contact time. Short ground contact time is the safer bet. Long ground contact time is more of the FT exercise. It's explosive. It recruits more muscle fibers. I think a FT athlete focusing on distance running ought to avoid all long ground contact plyos. And similar to strength training, all athletes should think of the long ground contact time plyos as something to train until a certain standard is attained, then maintained. Let the jumpers and sprinters chase endless development on those.

Sprinting -- Again, there ought to be a top speed standard to attain, then maintain. Once you've developed a good top speed, those sessions could turn into speed endurance sessions instead. But since we're talking about actual running now and not cross-training, I believe the type of fatigue is too specific and interfering with our actual training. So I can't see speed endurance sessions being worth it, at least for road runners. Track folks might like to periodize some speed endurance into their schedules. But for us, I think submaximal sprints are the way to go, which are basically short strides for people who actually have a respectable top speed.

For example, sprinting is about 3:00/mi pace for me these days. I don't think I ever need to hit that speed in training for a marathon, or the equivalent effort on a hill sprint. It's overkill and it's preserving my FT dominance. Instead, I will gently accelerate and hold a max of 3:45 pace for 6-8 seconds. Doing 4 of these twice a week is plenty. And keeping "exercise order" theory in mind, doing them before the subt sessions or the long run is even safer. If our goal is to blunt any FT adaptations and promote ST adaptations, then doing the faster stuff first followed by 50+ mins of ST running should theoretically be better than ending a session with the faster stuff.

So that's a very fancy way of saying I'll be doing strides as part of the warmup. But seriously, the difference is important: normal warmup strides for someone with the same subt pace as me but a much slower top speed would be no faster than 4:45/mi and they'd likely do them longer than 6-8 seconds.

In addition to these submaximal sprints, all my strength training will now aim for 15-20 reps except for calves which I'll keep doing low reps or 4s holds. And my plyos will be short ground contact time only (yes to drop jumps, no to depth jumps, etc). I also still like jogging the recoveries on the subt intervals.

Again, sorry to the purists who don't want this thread to have any mention of cross training or sprinting or even strides.

What are examples of short ground and long ground contact time plyos?

The best part of consistently slogging through summer in the south, is fall/winter hits like crack. You feel invincible first morning in the 50s

In terms of effort, heat is much worse than cold. And to be clear, the weather is never very cold for Sirpoc (based on his Strava). He might think it’s cold but 30-40 Fahrenheit is excellent running weather. Ice is more of a safety problem than a risk of over training.

Feels like you must be doing something wrong. I’m a newb runner following this starting this summer and it’s been fine.

Classic example of you’re all correct. Humid heat is worse for some of y’all. “Cold” of water barely freezing is certainly better than humid heat, but I’ll tell you -30° to -40° is no picnic either.

Sirpoc might have relatively better year round weather, but nothing is perfect.

Everyone needs to run to their conditions.

I’d prefer if we supported one another rather than one-up each other in complaints.

Good info

I guess the OG and official king of this method is Kristoffer Ingebrigtsen and he runs on a treadmill to avoid the extreme weather in Norway.

Personally I'd rather take my chances in 100 degree heat or snow and ice before venturing back to the treadmill!

One problem with the summary on the Google site is that it specifies 1 minute rest intervals for all workouts with 1K reps and above, but I don't think that was ever part of the system. Sirpoc specified 1:30 rests for 1600m reps and 2:00 rests for 3K reps pretty early on (although acknowledging the 2:00 rests as a matter of convenience, and he seems to be experimenting with 1:30 rest intervals recently).

This could be one reason some beginners dig themselves into a hole early on, and it should be corrected in a frequently-used information source.