Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

If a FT type does not feel during the 6-10min repeats that itchy feeling "to go,to run faster,to put a foot on a pedal" or one could say some high speed reserve,then balance is lost with to much aerob controlled pace. With alactic sprints (short hills or flat) a bit of plyometrics (bounding etc.) and progressively faster strides one should bring back the balance.

For balancing a bit of faster speed is enough,sprinkled before and after workouts. No need for whole sessions.

I posted a very long testimonial pages back. But totally and completely disagree. I did absolutely nothing to work my FT system and this is the fastest I've ever been.

This works better than any training I've ever done for a pure speed guy like me, simply because it doesn't worry about the stuff I'm naturally already good at. In fact , it has worked on my huge gaps and weaknesses in my ability, which is the sub threshold stuff, which in turn is actually what has made me race better.

I still have a huge kick naturally anyway, I can just turn that on which is already going to be better than any ST guy, no matter how much he trains.

I can't emphasise enough how I feel about this. This comes from someone who has tried just about every known training program for the 5k.

It was a slog for a while to get up to the paces prescribed, but the fact that was the case, shows the glaring weakness in my running which has now almost totally been fixed.

This is obviously just me, but a few other guys posted maybe 9-12 months ago saying the same thing which was a big wake up call to me when I started training like this. There is a lot of textbook advice in this thread , but outside of sirpoc (obviously the GOAT Aand rightly so) there's is a wealth of incredible nuggets of buried help in the thread from guys who have actually trained like this themselves. To me, this training system alone throws out the textbook when it comes to training and I think muscle types is probably also one of them.

Certainly none of those things you say are a "must", have ever come close to being a must for me.

I'm faster because controlling the sessions and learning to run at paces for amounts of time I was previously uncomfortable with, has meant I've gotten faster. Because I'm learning to control things, I'm more consistent. Because I'm more consistent means I'm running more, which generates more load which makes me faster again in turn. They are the only "musts" in this sirpoc method for me, whether you are fast twitch, slow twitch, from the moon or Mars.

Good post and that last paragraph really nails the benefits and the constant improvement cycle of this training.

I'm not a bot; I had my text translated by an AI, and it got a bit carried away.
Doing the sessions without eating anything beforehand was more out of
practical necessity than by choice. In the morning, I can't tolerate too
many carbs yet. I'm currently experimenting a bit. Having a banana
after getting up and a gel during the session has already worked much
better.

@colder and wiser: Your tips are helpful, thank you very
much. So far, I've completed every session with a 1-minute break. I'll
increase that accordingly for longer intervals. Also, the idea of
running by feel and progressing the pace gradually is a great
suggestion.

I can understand @Norve’s ideas well in theory.
Personally, I think I'd prefer keeping the intervals very short and
running more in the direction of 10k pace.

However, I prefer to lean on real-world examples, and @ft guy again did a
great job showing that the classic sirpoc approach directly addressed
his weak points. I'm really curious about how your progress went so that you were able to complete the three sessions. Did you choose a pace more at the lower end of the sub-LT scale? Were you more tired than usual at the beginning, and did it level out over time?
How long did it take until it started to feel right for you?
Which intervals do you use (1k, 2k, 3k)?
I would really appreciate your help.

FT training adaption has been confusing since the late 90s/early 2000s. You've got 2 schools of thought.

Used to be it was thought to strengthen your weaknesses like FT guy again said. Workouts with longer reps with shorter rest breaks or with active jog breaks in between. ST runners were thought to do more 400 meter repeats with longer rest breaks to strengthen what they're weaker at. I recall in college halfway through the season & FT runners like myself headed to the grass soccer fields to do mile repeats with short jogging breaks whereas ST runners headed to the track for some 600-400 near all out repeats with long breaks.

But lately I've read more from guys like Magness, Bakken, & people on this board in other threads that FT runners should utilize their strength & what they're naturally good at & do short aerobic intervals etc. Something like the 400 meter repeats at 10k pace with 45 sec rest. This is thought to not fatigue them as much as 3 x 10 min.

It's still confusing being a FT type,lol.

I think I agree with a lot of this from my own experience as well. I also get the argument of "do more of what you are good at", but for the most part as someone definitely more towards an 800-1500 guy rather than a 5-10k guy, I have gotten better right up to the HM focusing on whatever we are calling the basic sirpoc program. I have seen it called "vanilla" where we are making few adaptations.

I think the fact that we can have fast twitch, slow twitch, old, young, experienced or newer runners progressing massively on this; we can just say this - it's a bloody good training program for just about everyone who is aerobically undeveloped, which is 99% of hobby joggers. This is probably the part very few people are debating at this point.

Catching up on the thread, that's the beauty of training like this, in that I haven't found myself scouring running content looking for the next magic fix. Just a year almost now doing the work and some PBs in the bag. I see in recent months there is talk of sirpoc writing a book. Hope this is true, it'll clear up a lot of things once and for all and I'm sure it'll be great. I know he's quite modest but he has incredible communication skills so I have no doubt it'll be a big hit.

When you say "a while", what was your timeframe like? When did you start to feel like you were hitting the target paces in a consistent way?

If true, then each day's Sub-T paces will be different even if you do the same workout 3x a week (10x3, 60s rest MWF), if I read you correctly?

Maybe it is more individual,but after a few breakthroughs I did plateud badly without these little fast(ish) work.

These are not my ideas,it is in OG Bakken files. He experiented with a few ways to "skin the cat". Even doing subLT every day,or triple LT days etc.

For that 45sec (rest 15s) he said,the idea is from Billat 200/200m protocoll.Albeit he did them on treadmill 45sec about 5K pace + just stepping sideways for 15s (without turning down the treadmill).

Bakken used the light sistem also green,red,yellow light. When he felt green light day,he many times ran the last LT intervals progressively faster (but only the last one,or the last 200m of last one). On other days strictly subLT.

mariusbakken.com

Update 2025 – Part two of the article below written in 2002 is now posted here : The Norwegian Model Revisited The Norwegian model of lactate threshold training and lactate controlled app…

Link:www.mariusbakken.com/the-norwegian-mod...

Eg. for a 35min 10K guy doing 25 x 45sec strarting @42s/200m and progressing to about @39-40sec/200m is also subLT work. The rest is very short 15s,that is to use the aerob pathways,otherwise the FT type will use the anaerob pathway at the first 50-100m of every rep,and that is a no-no in this kind of subLT workout.

So that is the key,short rest,and not turning on the anaerob "rockets".

I think you are getting lost again in the fact that Bakken was running at an elite level. Whether he was FT or ST is kind of irrelevant, he of course needed to stimulate both systems. This goes without saying. NSM of course can only take you so far. But I think all evidence I have seen in real world guys is that if you fast twitch or slow, best still to work on the standard reps.....

I to myself also find I am a FT sprinter kind of guy but for sure I have more massive benefit from doing the reps maybe my body doesn't want to do and next bang for buck is still probably basic NSM plan. For others who ask questions, I can only speak for me but after maybe 6 week only, I start to feel like for sure, OK I am FT by nature but soon I can then hit prescription paces like a normal runner. After I do this simply aerobic gains have been bigger for me.....

It cool because like other hobby guy I can still put kick other slow hobby joggers like me if need to. But the difference is instead of fighting 20 min guys on line I now fight 18 min guys and my raw target speed still exist :) just my thought

You are right Bakken was elite level. But when Jakob was younger 12-14 years old,he also did LT singles,so it is a valid tool for lower level athletes too.

I do not say every FT must do this in the beginning,if you have low hanging fruits (weekly volume at subLT longer slower reps , controlled easy easy runs etc.) then do them. Vanilla Sirpoc version,but if you feel loosing your strenght (FT) then there is an already layed way to bring the balance back.

Maybe there are out there those runners,who did many months vanilla version and plateued,albeit doing everything prescribed and controlled,then for them it could be the needed small change. By the way this is also subLT work,just faster pace because of very short reps.

Me and a club mate have both been doing this. I'm an 400 guy by trade but got into 5-10ks in my 20-30s like most. I have been doing this training but with the shorter efforts, like you describe. My friend has been doing the longer ones. We don't workout together but do our easy and long runs as a group or as a pair.

We have both massively improved on last year following sirpoc's guidelines. But 1-2 of the workout days for me are replaced with the much shorter stuff, as per bakken etc.

I was talking with my friend about this feeling like it's all catching up with me. A few of the posts have made me think maybe I shouldn't be doing the shorter stuff after all? Sirpoc said the freshness the next day +1 was always worse after 400m repeats, hence why he dropped them (despite as you say still being sub threshold). But I think the intensity control is about right with what I am doing, so I don't think it's that. Are we looking at the shorter stuff being ott mechanical stress over weeks and months, no matter what your fiber type?

My friend says nothing of the sort. In fact he says he is super fresh still and has never felt better. I'm actually with you on this, but can't help but think even though I am a raw speed guy I might have played this one off wrong, as seems a lot of the other feedback and testimonials for FT types actually are more in like with just doing more vanilla sirpoc.

It's certainly interesting to debate and talk about , if not a little niche.

I have tried to stick as closely as possible to the classic Sirpoc
method. Regarding the pace, I followed the specifications from Lactrace.
Over the weeks, a strong fatigue has accumulated in my legs and
muscles. I seem to need two easy days before I
should do another session, even though the sub-LT sessions are rather
light and the easy sessions were 60–90 /k seconds slower than marathon
pace (heart rate about 65% max). I still don’t understand how you can
manage to do this for months without down weeks and still feel fresh. I
will reduce to two sessions plus a moderate/steady run, and after getting
used to it, I’ll try three sub-LT sessions again.
Has anyone had good experiences with doing only 2 sub-LT sessions per week?

Why don't you combine? Weekly one workout 60sec or 45sec (this one is tricky,so maybe monthly once enough) + the other two workouts the longer ones 6min and 10min.

Optimizing the mechanical stress,but still getting some impulse weekly.
I hear you about the mechanical stress,that is a good point.

What is your easy pace and what is a recent race result? Your easy pace should be about 2 mins per km slower than your 5k race pace... even 30 secs slower again if you're accumulating fatigue. So if you did 5k in 20 mins (4:00/km) then your easy pace should normally be 6:00/km, but in your case as slow as 6:30/km to try and shed that fatigue.

My last 5k race was in 18:19 minutes / 3:40/km.
According to your calculation, the easy runs should then be done at
5:40/km. That pretty much matches my pace. Depending on how tired I am, I
jogged between 5:50/km and 5:30/km (heart rate 110–125 bpm with a max
of 187). Strangely, I feel a bit better the day after a Sub LT than the
second day, when the next Sub LT session is already scheduled. Maybe
it’s DOMS. Perhaps this would be better for me: easy, Sub LT, medium-long
steady, easy, Sub LT, easy, long run with steady segments. The two
steady sessions could then replace one Sub LT session.

I started with two but quickly built up to three. Best thing I did was just totally deload for a week, start again and basically started off with everything much slower than prescribed. At the end of the day if you can't hit the paces and feel fresh, dial it back until you can bring those paces back up and you do. It's a fine balance but all you are trying to do is maintain the balance of fatigue and progression. Within a month, I was up and around the vanilla paces and have been ever since.

Also consider the weather, it's not just warm but unusually humid with high dew points especially in northern Europe. You can certainly scratch a good few % off the vanilla paces based on that as well.