Modifying the Norwegian approach to lower mileage

Funny how we are almost 2 years and 300 pages and we haven't resolved the least important question: Is this approach novel, or is it a knockoff?

This is really it. I'm maintaining a far higher load than I ever have before over a longer period of time. Whether it's the most optimal mix of intensity or not for me is probably less relevant than the fact that it's so sustainable.

life will give you down weeks, especially for this audience, i dont think you really need to 'plan' them especially given the guardrails

Checking back in from a couple of months ago to report that after 9 weeks of entirely vanilla NSA, I'm seeing a small amount of improvement even though starting NSA meant that my weekly mileage dropped from 85-95 to 60-65. Given that no fitness loss has started yet (in fact it's the opposite--currently the fastest I've ever been for the heart rate range slightly below LTHR), I'm starting to think there won't be any loss, at least for shorter distance races.

One of the people from NSA group has a great article regarding this.

I have been doing my SubT just after lunch, which is when peak UV hits. Usually around 75-80F. Fortunately dew point has stayed 50-55F. I'm still able to be within 10-15s of target pace.

modeltheruncom.wpcomstaging.com

The Effects of Heat on Running and How We Can Train Around (and with) It

modeltherun

It’s starting to get to that time of year where many of us begin to dread turning that doorknob. We step out the door and feel the glare of the sun, radiating through an oven of hot air, and ???

Link:modeltheruncom.wpcomstaging.com/2025/0...

I just extend the rests from 60s to ~2-3mins if I feel myself overheating and straying beyond 10s of target pace. I rather extend the rests to reset myself and give more time to cooldown to maintain good biomechanics and not stray too far from target pace, rather than slowing down considerably that it affects the quality of the workout. I'll also do the rests standing or sitting.

And most importantly, I hydrate a lot and do intra-carbs (as table sugar + water, not those overpriced mixes/gels)

A lot of bro science in that. Also, totally ignoring the fact that the NSM is looking for fatigue management. If there is a way you want to put yourself into a hole as a hobby jogger, heat training is one of them. Deliberately putting yourself in that position as a middle aged hobby guy is flat out irresponsible. That's my view and someone who regularly runs in 80+ with very high humidity. If you want something sustainable, get yourself out of the heat.

You can potentially make a case for it if you don't have to then work, or have anything else to worry about and a life to get on with, i.e a pro , college guy perhaps. But you are just unnecessarily playing with fire and 20+ years of these kind of conditions get harder and harder the older you get as well.

Yo, a bit harsh on the bro science. There's some agreed science but also some debate on heat training protocols, but definitely not bro science. But do agree heat training for a hobby jogger is down right asking for trouble.

Enjoyed the modeltherun article on respiratory rate. The putting 2+2 together, the kid who has been talking about it a lot on the Strava group who runs about 200km a week is writing these. Think he's a college guy but seems to have done his read up on training methods. Only downside is I'm not sure a college guy is gonna get the troubles the NSM target crowd encounter. As in mostly older guys who really have to be careful balancing day to day and fatigue. Even if I adjust paces, any time you workout in 75+ I don't think you are in for as easy a day the next day.

200km a week? Wtf? Mistakenly added a zero?

Nothing else to add other than that. Oh actually and I agree 100% and don't think you will find anyone who doesn't: Heat training for a hobby jogger is probably diving head first into the kind of mess you don't want to be getting involved in. Obviously sometimes it's unavoidable. But I certainly think it's kinda crazy to be suggesting we should actively going out of our way to do it. i lived in the south pacific for 3 years and ran and you never get used to it and it really does drain you to the point I agree that if you have other things to do in daily life, recovery is totally getting compromised. There's almost no way around that.

Hey all, been following this thread for months. Love it.

But yes, our man does 200km per week in Florida. It's pretty crazy. Sometimes on the treadmill, presumably in a gym with AC, but we know the treadmill is also a sweat fest.

That being said, heat training protocol recommendations are drastically different compared with what he does.

I've read that you should go for 5-7 sessions of 30-45 minutes in extreme heat (95-105F) AT A LOW INTENSITY (Z2 max) within a two-week time frame. And that is all you need to gain the benefits of heat adaptation (which are reported to be up to a 5-7% gain in VO2 max EVEN IN COOL CONDITIONS). To maintain your gains, just do one hot session per week going forward. No need for any interval workouts or long runs in extreme heat.

I think hobby joggers could benefit from this protocol especially if they are going to race in heat. Should it be a priority over getting in the appropriate training? No. But it could be a useful tool if implemented correctly.

Doing workouts in some of the heat listed here is pure crazy and this is coming from someone who lives in Texas!

I've seen him on Strava. Kid seems to be interested in a range of training but doesn't apply it to himself? When he gets older he will look back and look at all of the crazy ass sh*t you can get away with in your teens and not bury urself. Messing with heat when y'all 45 like me isnt something id recommend if you want something sustainable. If you can't avoid it, sure the odd run isn't gonna kill me. But I go out of my way to avoid it. 20 years of running in heat has done nothing particularly good other than make the next run harder and so on.

Is this another way of saying that VO2max goes up and down by 5-7%?

And that this applies to endurance athletes of every level of aerobic ability from hobby jogger to elite.

Because it seems from what I have been reading that similar numbers keep coming up in study after study, year after year. Decade after decade.

Just looked the guy up. As someone who wasted all my former years running stupid mileage, it catches up with you. I've done a lot of stupid things but I don't think I've ever seen many people in my life, waste their milage as much as this dude. Having got into ultras a few years back, even those guys with their terrible understanding of training are probably using their hours better.

Honestly , makes the articles very hard to take seriously. I'm from the school of practice what you preach, i think that's an important skill. Even if it's not exactly what you preach, still hard to take it all very seriously.

What are his PBs?

Just curious as I used to be a very high mileage guy. There comes a point where volume it's just plain stupid and the returns aren't there. It's probably why I'm such a fan of this thread. Can get to the same relative ability on probably half the time I was wasting on super high mileage. Very similar to sirpoc's own experiment he documented earlier in the thread where he did a crazy amount of easy volume but it took him twice as long to reach the same rough relative load.

Having read the article, seems very AI anyway. Without being disrespectful, you do need a relative amount of experience and set backs over a period of time to understand running in practice rather than just theory. It's hard for a teenager to have much grasp of that. No matter what the intelligence. I was sure I knew what was best when I was in college and then you get older and realise the challenges change quick quickly as you get older.

Sorry, that probably sounds very negative!

pretty obviously a knock off, or it wouldn't be called "modifying the Norwegian approach" :-)

I don't think sirpoc has ever called it the NSM, to be fair to him.

I would argue it's unique in the sense that I have never seen someone bring together all the various pieces of different approaches, package it up, make it understandable and make it work. All training has similarities. What is different is how closely they stick to a certain part of the philosophy or how it's communicated. The way this method has been communicated is A+.

You won't find many, it any books, suggesting to train like this for a 5k, and even more so for how sirpoc approached and crushed a marathon on his first attempt. Add me to the list who foolishly thought he wouldn't break 2:35. In fact I was so blinded by what everyone else does, that was my absolute best case scenario.

The approach is very un-running bias, in the sense it doesn't really care for the last couple of decades obsession with stuff you probably don't need, which are still in 95% of other plans, even if in some cases it's less prominent than others.

Appreciate that, thanks.

The guy did say "way too fast," but I wanted to know what they meant. Did they mean actually too fast, or just "this isn't in my plan" (i.e., it's 71% instead of 70%) fast?

I've read this whole thread (and spent hours distilling the posts/thoughts into a shorter document), and what I've noticed is that people are beating the crap out of a very simple idea. Here's the point, from the first page: "Because there is very little vo2 max stuff I pretty much am ready to go for the next session no problem."

The goal is to make sure you're ready for the next hard run: worrying about going two percent too fast on your in between days (or even actually doing it) isn't going to be the end of the world. But it will ruin the joy you can get from running. The training IS boring, and most days you WILL be a lone wolf, but that doesn't mean you can't be flexible. Going for one run with your mates is not going to ruin your overall progress.

I just call it BDSM. (British double/singles method)

Someone earlier said it should be called the British method, which makes sense. Yes, some of it's from Kristoffer I's training, but it's also the British cycling method along with the main Brit himself who adapted it for running & gave us an example & faith that the system can work (even for old washed up hobby joggers.) Sirpoc is doing doubles now, though most of us are doing singles. So there's some BDSM.

People are just rambling on here.

Post your training, race results and gps data.

Let's see the hard evidence of what works and what doesn't.

Everything else is heresay.