The Final Is Here: Deena Kastor or Jim Ryun - Who is the American GOAT?

still a miler wrote:

It’s quite difficult to compare a male miler from the 60s to a female marathoner of the 21st century..can’t they both be winners? Men and women compete separately

No they don't

birdbeard wrote:

skamps wrote:

Correct, but I don't agree with you casting it as a race thing. If Donovan Brazier ends up with the same career as Lagat he'll be the GOAT. If Nick Willis changed citizenship in his prime I wouldn't be excited about his US achievements.

that's fair. i think there is an undercurrent of disdain on this site for african-born americans that there isn't for, say, canadians. but that certainly doesn't apply to everyone.

Don't disagree about the undercurrent, but even if Jakob became a US citizen this year at 19 (well ahead of his prime) I don't think we'd see some great celebration of the "next great American distance running superstar" just because he's white. I think the disdain has to do with many African-born runners getting citizenship in their 20s, so you don't really see that sentiment with Lomong or Meb (maybe somewhat, but to a lesser degree). If the Ingebrigtsens all suddenly became US citizens you would see at least two, potentially all three Olympic/WC spots going to them in 1500/5k which I think would incite similar feelings.

A great matchup for the final between Ryun and Kastor. I came in thinking I would choose Ryun, the legendary highschool miler who went on to break the world record. But then, after going through the numbers, and watching the race videos, I ended up realising it was way closer than I initially thought - see the bottom for who I ended up picking. Here is my analysis, where I compared the athletes head to head in some of the categories presented

World Records: Ryun

None of Kastor's records were ever world records. Ryun held multiple world records. Ryun's 1500m world record lasted six years, his mile record lasted 8 years. His 880yard best was also the best time for 8 years [but multiple athletes were withinn 0.1 seconds of within a couple of years]

American Records: Kastor

Kastor's best record, her American marathon record still stands, Ryuns best record, the mile, was unofficially broken/tied 12 years later, officially 14 yrs later ). Since Kastor's is 14 years old already, and no woman is likely to break it anytime soon. Her record will have lasted longer than Ryun's. The fact that she is the only American woman to have ever run sub 2:20 (a magical barrier in women's marathon running gives her record, in my opinion, some added significance). And no woman has ever gotten within a minute of it, which is kind of crazy. It also needs to be taken into account that the mile has been much more rarely run by professional athletes [even during Ryun's time when it was more common, 1973 was the last 1mile run at the US champs]. Looking at the other records - Kastor set American records in the 10,000m (lasted 6 yrs), and the half marathon (lasted 12 yrs), road 15k (lasted 11 yrs) and the road 5k. She still holds American records in the road 10 mile, and 8k. Ryun has one other American record, in the 880y which lasted 8 years. While Ryun has an impressive list of American junior records that add to his legacy, it's hard to know how much weight to give them. Ultimately this is about GOAT runners, not junior runners, so I'm not convinced we should give junior records much weight. Kator's range of American records is just better than Ryuns.

Olympic Performances: maybe slight edge to Ryun - but pretty close to a tie

Ryun has a Silver and Kastor has a bronze. We have to analyze these accomplishments against the quality of the fields they ran against, and the margins by which they were beaten, and the opportunities they had. Kastor ran against a very strong Olympic marathon field, she was defeated by two former world record holders, Naguchi former record holder over 25k and 30k from her positively split 2:19:12 marathon in Berlin, and Nderebda the former world record holder over the marathon, 2:18:47. Radcliffe, the record holder at the time, was also in the race but DNFed. What was especially impressive about Kastor's run was how she surged over the final 10km to pick off many runners ahead of her. She ended up being beaten by Naguchi by 1 min, but she was gaining on the leaders through the very end. In the 1968 Olympics, at the height of Ryun's prime, Ryun competed against an arguably weaker field and was beat by 2.98 seconds (this would equate to being beat by 1:24 in a marathon if we extrapolate over the distance) a bigger gap. Of course, we can say the 1500 was at altitude and Kastor's marathon was in crazy heat. But in the end the conditions are what they are.

US championships: Kastor

Despite the fact that Kastor's best event is not even contested in the US outdoor championships, she still has more titles (5 vs 3).

Global medals: Kastor

Cross country is the heart and soul of our sport, the 2 silvers in XC are major accomplishments against fields of dominating east Africans + Paula Radcliffe. What's particularly notable about these performances is that in an Olympics, or world championships, the east African nations are restricted to only a few runners, but in XC, because of the team championships, the fields are actually stronger than the Olympics. Having 5-7 Kenyans and Ethiopians in the field makes breaking through into the medals very tough.

Range: Kastor

Kastor was the best American runner at the 5k - marathon while she was competing. She is a true GOAT distance runner. Ryun, while the best American MIDDLE-distance runner of all time, only has a 13:38 5k pb. Even during Ryun's time, there were several Americans running 10+ seconds faster, including Prefontaine 13:21, Paul Geis 13:23, Dick Buerkle 13:23, and George Young 13:29. Kastor was certainly a better 5k runner than Ryun was (relative to their genders), despite the event being outside both of their best distances. This was the tie-breaker for me in a very close decision. If Ryun ran a 5k in very low 13:30s, I'd be willing to give it to him.

In some sense, I think this was the toughest match for me to make a decision. I was expecting to go with Ryun, but was surprised when I thought about it a bit deeper. There are multiple ways to interpret the stats and present the data. I'm sure folks would disagree with me and I think that's reasonable. I thought I'd just say how I changed my mind. There is such legend behind Ryun, he was truly fantastic. But I think if I didn't give the stats a closer look, I would have been very biased by this legendary status.

Congratulations on providing a detailed case for Deena, but I can't completely discount the majesty of Ryun's running at its best. It was really something special to see. If I were voting in this, I don't know how I could bring myself to vote for Deeena over Ryun. (Of course, I'm not voting for either of them, since Lagat and Decker are so vastly more accomplished in the sport, and this site's refusal to permit proper consideration of their accomplishments undermines the integrity of the competition.)

Decker: Drug Cheats Out - it would be truly embarrassing to have a convicted and banned drug cheat as GOAT.

Lagat: I voted for him but he lost. So what. Ryun has legendary status - a very understandable choice.

casual obsever wrote:

Decker: Drug Cheats Out - it would be truly embarrassing to have a convicted and banned drug cheat as GOAT.

Lagat: I voted for him but he lost. So what. Ryun has legendary status - a very understandable choice.

Which American runner since Glenn Cunningham absolutely crushed the world middle distance records and went undefeated at his specialty distance for 3 years, as Ryun did? Sure, Lagat was good, but no world records and no Olympic championship. I don't think that we can say he was the best in his era, as we can of Ryun at his peak.

MatthewXCountry wrote:

A great matchup for the final between Ryun and Kastor. I came in thinking I would choose Ryun, the legendary highschool miler who went on to break the world record. But then, after going through the numbers, and watching the race videos, I ended up realising it was way closer than I initially thought - see the bottom for who I ended up picking. Here is my analysis, where I compared the athletes head to head in some of the categories presented

Thanks. I voted for Kastor as well, but seeing your write-up makes me more confident that it was the right decision. Her name doesn't have the same kind of "fire power" as Samuelson or Flanagan or Simpson and I think she often gets overlooked, but she was really accomplished.

Armstronglivs wrote:

But outside the US today and a coterie of marathon devotees, the name of Deena Kastor means nothing - as fine a runner as she may be. There really is no comparison; one athlete was an international colossus - however brief his time in the sun - and the other, for all her undoubted national achievements, is only a hometown hero. You can't match the best in the world, as Ryun was in the sport, as he rewrote the record book, with only being the best in your own country, as Kastor has been, however enduring that level of career. Mary Decker was the only other legitimate contender.

I agree, I have been following athletics from the early Eighties, and am very familiar with Jim Ryun, but have virtually never heard of Deena Kastor until I saw this poll. I had to Google her, and even then her achievements seem very underwhelming when viewed in the context of "greatest American" etc.

From a non-American perspective, Mary Decker, Joan Benoit or Jenny Simpson seem light years more accomplished and recognizable.

If it had been Joan Benoit-Samuelson, it would have been an easy choice, she has Olympic gold and a world record. Her Olympic gold was achieved two weeks after undergoing knee surgery. That's so nuts. Kastor was not my #1 woman. Unfortunately, folks chose Simpson over her, who really is not the same level as Joan. Fascinatingly, I think the Brojo's bashing the Simpson choice (which was correct to bash in my opinion) was too late. In my opinion, the issue was in the Brojo's write up of Joan. It just didn't convey the excitement of the other write-ups relative to how good she was. It didn't even mention she held the world record, which she did for half a year in 1982.

Men should be Lagat, Rupp, Centro.

Women Simpson, Samuelson.

Avocado's Number wrote:

If I were voting in this, I don't know how I could bring myself to vote for Deeena over Ryun. (Of course, I'm not voting for either of them, since Lagat and Decker are so vastly more accomplished in the sport, and this site's refusal to permit proper consideration of their accomplishments undermines the integrity of the competition.)

Vastly more accomplished? Wow, that's not how I'd put it.

Jim Ryun set 6 world records. Lagat set 0.

Both men have Olympic silver medals.

If world championships existed in the '60s, Ryun would have 2 golds from 1967 like Lagat has from 2007.

Ryun has 3 world #1 rankings. Lagat has 1, in a year (2004) he lost the only race that mattered.

Ryun still holds American Junior records in the 1500, mile, and 2 mile (which on conversion is also superior to the junior 3000 record).

Ryun was on the cover of Sports Illustrated 7 times. Lagat 0 times.

Also worth noting Lagat has a positive test for epo, later overturned after the B sample tested negative, similar to prolific drug cheat Marion Jones who also had a positive test for epo, which was later overturned when the B came back negative. Make of that what you will.

Another good case for Ryun.

obviously neither. rupp and benoit and i would put benoit ahead.

Why did Jim Ryun “only” win one outdoor NCAA title?

Did he skip NCAA outdoor championships or did another collegiate athlete actually manage to beat him?

Both are great American runners. But in my opinion neither of them is the greatest, so I'm not bothering to choose.

Sancreed wrote:

I have been following athletics from the early Eighties... but have virtually never heard of Deena Kastor until I saw this poll. I had to Google her, and even then her achievements seem very underwhelming when viewed in the context of "greatest American" etc.

From a non-American perspective, Mary Decker, Joan Benoit or Jenny Simpson seem light years more accomplished and recognizable.

I'm trying to not be snarky, so I apologize in advance if this comes off offensive, but Deena was the top American for roughly a decade and one of the top runners internationally during that period... she ran sub 2:20 14 years ago. At that time, how many women had run under 2:20? She was an Olympic bronze medalist and earned two World XC silver medals. She won London and Chicago.

As I've posted before, I do think Slaney is the best US woman ever, but certainly comes with baggage. Outside of her, Kastor, Samuelson, Flanagan, Jennings, and Simpson all have strong cases for second GOAT American.

An amazing post. Such great research. And you are Australian? Amazing. Or are you an American living in Australia?

JimRyunFan wrote:

Why did Jim Ryun “only” win one outdoor NCAA title?

Did he skip NCAA outdoor championships or did another collegiate athlete actually manage to beat him?

Historians, I have the same question. I'd like to see a season by season recap of Jim Ryun at the NCAA level as well as Alberto Salazar.

Rojo-in 1966 he was a freshman and couldn't compete in the NCAAs. Ironic as he set two world records that summer, his 3:51.3 mile record and his 1:44.9 880yd record.

He won in Provo in 1967 after winning indoors as well (but losing to Patrick in the 880, who set a WR).

In 1968 he had pulled a hamstring and was recovering from mono. He had won indoors in both the mile and two mile (beating Lindgren in the latter). Dave Patrick won that year, backing up his 1966 outdoor NCAA win.

In 1969 he beat Liquori in a photo finish indoors and lost to him outdoors.

Drew