10k- 39:34; 1/2 M- 1:35:19... how can I break 3?

brunojackson wrote:

provided OP ran an equivalent half (or if we didn't know his half at all) , what would you all say the 39:34 10k is good for marathon wise? asking as i have a similar 10k PR but don't have a recent half

It could indicate sub3 if he also ran a half of like 1:25 and had great endurance.

39:34 with a 1:35 half just screams painful 3:30-3:40 blowup to me, though.

Had the exact thought. The 8k race would be a better workout for marathon training if you did it at tempo pace.

What's the purpose of the workout wrote:

Had the exact thought. The 8k race would be a better workout for marathon training if you did it at tempo pace.

There is a short term goal component to it, I would like to dip under 30 for the PR as well as the mental boost of 'progress'

I like where you and other poster head is regarding making it a marathon workout.

- 3 mile easy wu, race the 8k @6 flat, then run the 8k loop again and try to hold 7:12/mile pace? -

I imagine this would be very painful but very rewarding towards marathon 'pain' fitness.

That would be a good workout. I've had friends do 5 and 10k races and then do 45 to 60 minutes post race at around marathon pace or a little slower.

But it's a big workout. Really big. Those guys were all doing 80 to 90 mile weeks. You said something about not really being able to run much the day after your 10k. If you race an 8k and then follow it up with a lot of fast miles, you might jeopardize the whole next week of training.

I'd stick with a 3-4 mile cool down. Slow. Like 8:30+ pace. Slower would be fine.

Don't worry about the 'mental boost of progress'...remember what you are training for. If I were you, I'd get a bigger boost of progress would be hitting something like this:

3mile easy wu; 8k@6:30-6:50 pace (be happy with anything in that range); 8-10miles easy. Much more applicable...those last easy miles will be very mentally difficult which is what you will need to prepare for race day. You need to be prepared for the tired heavy legs, and the mental games your mind will play after 90mins of runnning.

Curious, what's your longest long run to date?

rungeek13 wrote:

Don't worry about the 'mental boost of progress'...remember what you are training for. If I were you, I'd get a bigger boost of progress would be hitting something like this:

3mile easy wu; 8k@6:30-6:50 pace (be happy with anything in that range); 8-10miles easy. Much more applicable...those last easy miles will be very mentally difficult which is what you will need to prepare for race day. You need to be prepared for the tired heavy legs, and the mental games your mind will play after 90mins of runnning.

Curious, what's your longest long run to date?

According to my log, I did 14.2 miles in 1:46 on 09/07/19.

Suffered a painful shoulder injury on 09/22, only averaged 20 mpw until 10/20 due to pain of swinging arm.

My next longest run was the 1/2M in 1:35 on 10/26.

Since the 1/2M my longest runs have been 8-9 miles ranging in the mid to low 7's.

10 miles easy after 8k would be too much for me at this point. But I can do 4 easy, 8k @10k pace, 7 easy

I don't think you are developed aerobically to do a marathon paced session after the 8k race. Like someone else said, just run very easy after the race. It would be too much too soon

OOOOoooooo. So that's a huge piece to the puzzle, your shoulder injury. I feel like most of this discussion could have been avoided with that bit of info and your lack of mileage and long runs. Also explains why the half time and 10k time don't compute.

Just keep building that long run up. Don't make the rookie mistake of running your easy days too hard, just keep them easy and don't worry about pace.

I think you'll get the goal. Just work on getting used to running tempo and marathon pace as comfortable as possible in the next few months. The marathon pace should feel like cruise control by the time you get to the race

What's the purpose of the workout wrote:

OOOOoooooo. So that's a huge piece to the puzzle, your shoulder injury. I feel like most of this discussion could have been avoided with that bit of info and your lack of mileage and long runs. Also explains why the half time and 10k time don't compute.

Just keep building that long run up. Don't make the rookie mistake of running your easy days too hard, just keep them easy and don't worry about pace.

I think you'll get the goal. Just work on getting used to running tempo and marathon pace as comfortable as possible in the next few months. The marathon pace should feel like cruise control by the time you get to the race

I don't think its such a huge piece of puzzle. I was averaging 30-45 mpw pre-shoulder, then 20mpw for a month while injured. Would the lost 10-20 miles a week really have affected my 1/2M that much? If anything I remember I went into the 1/2M feeling 'fresh' legs due to the lowered mileage.

Question on the long runs, what is the better approach -

1) Standard build-up each week: 14 - 16 - 18 - 15 - 19 - 22

or

2) Long-long runs every other week: 12 - 20 - 12 - 22 -14 -23

I'd go with option #1. Jumping to 20M from where you currently are...might not go so well.

You seem to be a bit all over the place. Do you have someone locally to train with that has more experience and can log the miles with you? I am afraid that with the "ripping" and "crushing", you're one of those guys that doesn't know when to take it easy or pull the foot off the gas pedal.

The issue you're going to have, is it sounds like you like to race a lot and stick to quicker races/workouts while lacking the endurance over distance to translate your 5k times into 10k, half-marathon, marathon equivalencies.

You don't even need to be running 14 miles yet. Your obsession over exact mileage is going to eat away at your training as well. Start out running for 'time'. Run 80-90 minutes the first couple of weeks. Once that feels good, start with a little progression at the end of those runs as you extend the distance. Build up to 110 - 120 minutes comfortably where that progression feels natural at the end of those runs. Once you're there, get in a 20-22 miler leading up to the race.

Outside of your long runs, stop running mile repeats and things under 6 minute pace. I assure you, at no point during your marathon, will you be running anything near 6 minute pace. If you are, you're going to pay for it later. Long fartleks, tempos, etc. are what you need. Example: 2 mi warm-up into 7:30 - 7:25 - 7:20 - 7:15 - 7:05 - 7:00 - 6:50 - 6:40 - 6:30 w/ 2 mile down. You're 13 miles for a workout there, essentially a half. Make workouts like that feel easy and start tacking on miles.

My two cents. I was never much of a marathon guy. 2:29 full, 1:08 half and 14:22 for 5k.

12/7

1.5 warmup

8k Race - 5:51, 6:12, 6:43(hill), 6:22, 6:22 - 31:30.

8k cooldown - 6:52, 7:03(hill), 7:47, 7:47, 7:17

Sadly did not meet my sub 30 goal, too fast first mile kept heart rate way up, however wouldn't say I killed myself with effort. Immediately turned around at the finish and ran the 5 miles again for a tempoish cooldown.

Running recovery 7 today to get to 40 miles this week. Hope to average 60-70mpw the entire rest of December with focus on the 14-20 miles long runs and 7-10 mile workouts at M pace.

57 days until the Marathon. Next race is a trail 1/2M on 01/05/2020.

Yeah, probably too fast in that first mile. It's amazingly easy to do.

But that time of 31:30 is almost to the second of what the race calculators predict for a 39:34 10k runner. So . . . things are in line. Just maybe not exactly next to the round numbers you'd like them to be near.

Something you haven't learned and will need to learn for the marathon is discipline. That first mile of going out too fast in your 8k race shouldn't have happened and can't happen in the marathon. Same goes with your tempo cooldown, as you called it. You even fell apart in your cooldown

Don't worry about hitting exact weekly mileage. What you want to do for the rest of the month is a huge jump from what you did the week and what you've done the last month or so. Just put in the work you need to do each day, each week and let the end mileage add up to whatever the hell it adds up to be.

".... 40 miles this week. Hope to average 60-70mpw the entire rest of December "

Yeah, No.

Sorry but- you do not have enough years and miles in the bank at these levels of training. You are more likely to get injured than meet any other goal right now if you think you will jump from 40 to 60 mpw just like this.

Others have noted you have speed but no endurance. My own expereince was I had never broken 40 for 10k when I ran a 1:29 half. And that on 50 mpw. So I at least showed some promise of endurance. Your profile is less indicative of success at longer distances.

I would adjust my goal to just get to 50+ mpw training this time and try to run a 3:20 marathon. Being able to rack up weeks and months at higher mileage can and should be a goal itself. 60-70 mpw is a world apart from 45-50.

Finally, you only have 37 days more to train before you begin a 20 day taper, and yes you need the longer taper at your level.

So... there's some add'l perspective.

MarathonMind wrote:

".... 40 miles this week. Hope to average 60-70mpw the entire rest of December "

Yeah, No.

Sorry but- you do not have enough years and miles in the bank at these levels of training. You are more likely to get injured than meet any other goal right now if you think you will jump from 40 to 60 mpw just like this.

I can't recall if OP gave his age, but younger guys can be very resilient. About a year ago, there was a thread started by a 24- or 25-year-old who jumped from low mileage immediately to consistent 100-mile weeks. No injuries that I remember, and he recently ran a 2:36 marathon.

Back in college, I walked onto the track team as a senior, after not competing since high school. My mileage jumped from maybe 20 mpw to 80 mpw, and I was able to enjoy a reasonable season, racing mostly the 10,000m, and went on to run my first couple marathons that autumn.

Train more.

First step is to run faster 5-10 k, second 10 mile - HM and third step is a marathon.

Increase your mileage step by step, doing core workout and plyometrics.

When you run 37 min 10 k and about 1:20-1:22 for HM you can think about sub 3 for a marathon.

Good luck.

Yeah sure but- he's provided evidence that he is "not that guy".

If I had run a sub-40 10k I would have been running a 1:28 half. He has proven no speed over distance.

MarathonMind wrote:

Yeah sure but- he's provided evidence that he is "not that guy".

If I had run a sub-40 10k I would have been running a 1:28 half. He has proven no speed over distance.

To be honest, I'd venture to guess the guy ran even slower than that and is BS'ing us. Send us a link to the results and black out your name!