Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 10/20/19

Thanks everyone for the comments after my race. It's been a few days and I've come around to feeling really good about it (I knew I would, just needed a little bit to get the ashes of those 8 seconds out of my hair). Also I did some math and discovered I did actually set an *unofficial* personal best for 10 miles during the race. Official personal record is 1:12:58 (5.5 years ago, at a 10-mi mat en route in a half with a ridiculous uphill). Unofficial best was 1:12:31. It is now 1:11:34. Kind of sorry that my legs will probably be too trashed from Boston to run the Broad Street next year. Any other fast 10-milers ahead of April 20 that I might jump into?

LancRunner: can I get myself onto the age grade leaderboard? 10/20/2019 Half-marathon, 1:34:44, age 42 .... that calculates to 72.76% if I am using the right calculator? Thanks :-)

Almost cold this morning at 39 degrees .... even with little gloves my hands never got warm. The days of smothering heat feel so long ago. October has the best running weather out of the year, I think.

drcrusher wrote:

Any other fast 10-milers ahead of April 20 that I might jump into?

Cherry Blossom 10 Miler - April 5 2020

Thanks for the background and awesome job going way under your goals a year ago.

I actually was thinking about doing the same exercise myself, so I'm excited to do a look-back and see what I can improve (and really appreciate you doing the exercise).

I definitely have come to grips with the idea that I'll need to up my commitment level and training load if I want to get a no-doubter Boston time. Or I'll have to wait until I'm 35 (note: don't want to do that). For my first marathon I thought I was doing a decent amount, for this one I thought I was doing a decent amount. But each time I realize I can do more and obviously seeing a nice improvement is encouraging. For reference I think I did run 5 out of every 6 days this time, and the last one I did maybe 3 out of every 4 days. I'm happy I ran 2:56:52, either way, and also did it with normal shoes. Not to diminish anything run in VFs, but it feels like they are a performance enhancer of the like that we haven't really seen so good to see what I could do without. Happy to buy them for next one and try to take aim at a sub-2:50 though, maybe?

NYC forecast so far so good... looking like 46F at start, 7mph WSW

Have a spontaneous business trip next week to California which is unfortunate, but keeping it short (Tue afternoon flight + redeye return into Thu morning).

Jitters are starting to arrive -- just want to make it to the start healthy!

jot quill wrote:

NYC forecast so far so good... looking like 46F at start, 7mph WSW

Have a spontaneous business trip next week to California which is unfortunate, but keeping it short (Tue afternoon flight + redeye return into Thu morning).

Jitters are starting to arrive -- just want to make it to the start healthy!

Oooooo, that forecast must have you frothing at the mouth. Really can't wait to see how you do. Your training has been legendary.

BHViking wrote:

jot quill wrote:

NYC forecast so far so good... looking like 46F at start, 7mph WSW

Have a spontaneous business trip next week to California which is unfortunate, but keeping it short (Tue afternoon flight + redeye return into Thu morning).

Jitters are starting to arrive -- just want to make it to the start healthy!

Oooooo, that forecast must have you frothing at the mouth. Really can't wait to see how you do. Your training has been legendary.

+1,000

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

I'm happy I ran 2:56:52, either way, and also did it with normal shoes. Not to diminish anything run in VFs, but it feels like they are a performance enhancer of the like that we haven't really seen so good to see what I could do without. Happy to buy them for next one and try to take aim at a sub-2:50 though, maybe?

I have to admit, I've watched a whole bunch of serious move from other shoes to the VF, and for the most part, have minimal change in performance. No huge jumps in performance after the switch. High 2:20s remains high 2:20s. Low 3:0x remains low 3:0x. They do continue to improve and PR, but at a steady, expected rate.

There is one sub-group for which I have seen big jumps. And that's bigger guys who previously ran in heavier shoes - Kayano, Beast, some of the heavier Hokas, etc. Those guys knock off some serious time once they switch.

My conclusion, based on a non-scientific survey of about 25 runners, including teammates and friends, is that if you're already racing in something like the Adios, you're not going to get very much extra out of the VF. It's still a great shoe, and I recommend it. But it's not going to take 5 minutes off your marathon.

However, if you're someone who has never been able to race longer distance in light shoes....well...now you no longer have to choose between a light shoe and adequate cushioning. You can have both. And that makes a big difference for that group.

Thanks BHV, OR, will do my best to deliver to expectations!

Good info. Yeah no question I don’t think it’s 5 minutes for most. I was thinking 1-3 typically. Too much scientific proof out there to really think it’s nothing. That sort of improvement could very much fall under the guise of normal progression with a pretty minor one-time bump.

I ran in Bostons this time out and not really sure where that falls on the spectrum. I think not far off Adios.

At a running store I ran in a Vaporfly-inspired trainer. It did feel like I was being sprung forward. Different sensation than I’d experienced in a shoe before. I’d love to think it’s not a factor at all, but just seems like the science indicates otherwise.

OK TL, Here is the summary of your training.

7/22 Total: 34.5mi, LR: none, Workouts: none

7/29 Total: 39.6mi, LR: 9mi, Workouts: none

8/5 Total: 41.5mi, LR: 10.5mi, Workouts: 5x1200 HM pace

8/11 Total: 44.9mi, LR: 12mi, Workouts: 4x1 @ something slower than 5k pace

8/18 Total: 40.6mi, LR: 14mi, Workouts: 2x(3x800) 10kish pace

8/25 Total: 47mi., LR: 2hrs(14mi ?), Workouts: small ladder that had 1.5mi @ threshold

9/1 Total: 50mi., LR: 18mi (fast), Workouts: 6x1000 @ CV

9/8 Total: 51.7mi., LR: 20mi, Workouts: 4x1

9/15 Total: 34mi., LR: none, Workouts: none (sick and trip to WDW)

9/22 Total: 50mi., LR: 21mi (fast), Workouts: none

9/29 Total: 49mi., LR 17.4mi, Workouts: none

10/6 Total: 42mi., LR 12.2mi, Workouts: 3x1 + 1x800

For 12 weeks your average mileage was a bit under 45mi and your peak was 51.7mi.

Here are my thoughts. Using what you did here as a starting point, you should be able to improve your marathon time by making a modest bump in both your weekly mileage and workout mileage. That and doing a better job at consistently hitting your weekly workouts and having a few more weeks closer to your peak mileage. To do that you'll want a solid base before you start your marathon training cycle or you might want to do a longer marathon build. With the exception of your long run you did not have a workout on 25% of this 12 week training period. Take a look at AJ's training from last week. He did 70mi total with the first workout being a 4x2mi followed by a fartlek, and then a planned 10E+10M. That's three workouts in one week. If you adjusted that down to somebody that is running 50mpw that is still a lot more workout volume than what you did. For you to increase workout volume you will need to slow down the rest of your weekly runs. I seem to recall that weekday easy runs were at 7:30 pace which is on the fast side of easy for a 3 hour marathoner. You'll need to slow that down in order to recover to hit your next workout or long run if you bumped up you workout volume. I think your faster efforts are fine where they are, but you could bump up your threshold runs to something like a 3x2, 3+2+1 or, 2x2+2x1. Opinions will vary but I think that the threshold workouts are the meat and potatoes of marathon training. Putting some amount of quality in your long runs helps too.

You asked about about the last five miles of a marathon. The last 5-6mi in a marathon is going to feel more difficult than the previous 20mi. Doing things like a fast finish long run or a TLT (Threshold Long Threshold) will help prepare you for what those final miles in the marathon feel like. For a TLT, warm up, do 2-3 miles at threshold, drop back to an easy pace, then with 3 miles left, do that as 2 miles at threshold and the last mile as a cool down.

For me the jury is still out on the Nike VF. One thing I will say is that I think my feet appreciate the extra cushion over what I would normally use for a marathon which is the Saucony Kinvara. If you read the NYT article where the pulled data from Strava to see how much people improved when the switched shoes you'll have to put a critical eye on their evaluation because there are other data points to consider. I think that whenever somebody is going to invest that much money in a pair of shoes they intend to run a good time and that along with the shoes they are also investing their time into training for a good time as well. Using one of the examples that darkwave poined out, going from something like Brooks Beast to the VF is going to be a significant change. The Beast is a heavy and stiff shoe.

Really appreciate this analysis! Just noting I think I likely recorded wrong because I did have a workout the week of 9/15. Looks like 5x1200. I was a tad under the weather but hit a 6:05 mile pace tempo.

Will have a fuller response later, but again thanks a lot for breaking it down, and just awesome you put this all together.

On the shoes Q, I was very skeptical of that study as well. Was a tad surprised it’s been cited as much as it has been. A good deal of other studies though including BYU and Wired have stripped out the faulty trainer —> VF comparison and have left it to Adios/Zoom Streak via Strava AND/or controlled lab studies. There’re accordingly smaller jumps, but just too much data to ignore at least on a 1-2.5% level.

@JQ pumped to hear about the NYC weather.

Good thoughts, SI. Really cool that you put all that together.

Corrected the one recording error. For the 8/25 LR it was on a crazy trail, where it said I was going 9 min pace I believe (effort was definitely decent LR effort). Serpentine trail, but I suspect GPS wasn't accurate and it was more like 15 miles, but doesn't really matter in the larger picture. Again thanks for putting this together. Should probably note that the two weeks before the recording here I ran likely around 30 miles.

For sure. I think this year was a bit of a weird one. After the NJ Marathon, I felt completely spent and like I'm not going through that again. I couldn't run for a week-ish after it because my legs were all screwed up from running through really locked-up cramps at the end. I was planning to do everything smarter and better for a redemption 2020 race. I took it pretty easy until July 4, when I had a change of heart and got some determination to take another shot and not have to wait so long. I was not in terrible shape, but had probably been running 3x a week going into that. The next buildup, I'll definitely come in with a stronger base (barring injury), as I'm pretty committed to running right now as is my fiancee.

As part of coming in better shape, I'll make sure I come in ready to do workouts from the jump. I agree bumping up to 2 workouts per week is a good incremental move for me (much like I went from 0-to 1 this time). I did miss 2 in a key part of my training this time, but that was sickness-related (I was battling a cold I couldn't shake and erred on the side of running but not pushing effort level). I think I should get company for the longer threshold/tempo efforts (where possible). I was always poor at these in the past, though I think I'd be better it'd be helpful.

As far as easy pace, that makes total sense to me. Should note that I run completely by feel and I'd say my "easy" pace dropped 15 seconds naturally from the last cycle. I suspect in the future many more 7:45-8:15 paced runs will come with an additional workout/more mileage.

I didn't really write this down all the time, but a couple of my long runs were of the fast finish variety. Do think TLT and more runs of that nature could definitely help.

Really appreciate the full breakdown here! Few follow-ups:

- I ran basically 5 days on/1 day of rest this whole cycle. That was up from 3 days on/1 day of rest from the last one. I was being careful not to ramp up too much/stay healthy...For the next one should I up that to something like 9 days on/1 day off? That could naturally get me more in the 50-55 mpw range without changing too much.

-6 OR 6.4 mile base easy run length. Is that good or should it be upped? Should note that distance is arbitrary. It's either from my apartment or gym (further away) to two loops of the Bridle Path in Central Park.

-Doubling with the fiancee. She runs much slower than me on a typical run (9:45-10 min pace). I haven't run with her too much in the past, but she's getting faster and I think she might be down to 9:15-9:30 pace next year. I could run 3-4 miles in the morning with her as part of a double a couple times a week to add in some extra easy mileage (sidenote: would make her happy). Good idea?

-Also worth noting my tentative plan is to race early and often next year (already signed up for a Feb. 4 miler) with an increased training load. Probably implement that second workout early race. Big goal race might be a half in May (Brooklyn Half?) where I try to hit an NYC qualifier (sub 1:21). If I fare well there I could look into an early September marathon to be **really** sure about getting into Boston. So that's just some background on what the pre-Marathon block could be.

Those fiance doubles sound awesome :D. I think it's a great idea and anywhere 9:00-10:00 is definitely useful, especially if it's bumping your overall volume up!

I still frequently start out the first few miles of a run at 9:00-9:30

SI - Great thoughts. Very cool of you to lay out a plan like that.

TL - The best plan is the one you're going to follow. 6ish miles is fine for easy or recovery runs. When time and situations allow, a few more easy miles is great, especially with the fiance. Keep posting here and most importantly, keep consistent. The best plan is the one you'll consistently execute upon.

My wife does about one 5k a year, runs maybe 30-50 miles total to prepare. Sometimes, I wish we could do easy runs together. On the other hand, it's guaranteed alone time and she's a great support, especially at races. I do have those mornings, especially on the days I double, where I stop and think, "man, she would appreciate so much more if I spent 20 minutes unloading the dishwasher or taking care of whatever house stuff than running 5 extra miles.." That balance, it's tough to find sometimes.

SI: Been a hectic week, but I wanted to chime in on this. Still Improving knows what he's talking about. Everything he's telling you has roots in strong training theory and also his experience to back it up.

I just wanted to thank Still for taking the time! Much like Stone discussing OR's training, I find the discussions of specific runners very useful in helping me to evaluate and re-evaluate things I'm doing in my own training. I also recently read through the "sub-3:00" thread while having a few beers, so I have even more background knowledge of TL and what he was doing. It's all very good food for thought and much appreciated.

Good stuff guys.

Dark wave that is an interesting observation So for someone like myself, I always run in heavy cushioned trainers like Nike Vomero. Heavy, cushioned, and a 10-12 mm heel drop. Sounds like the VaporFly could help, although it would take time to get used to running in a zero drop flat, even with all that cushioning. Too late to introduce that with 4 weeks left to marathon, but maybe an interesting longer term experiment.

To Darkwave specifically, but to anyone with relevant experience...

How many runs should I Vaporfly before race day? I've been squirreling away money--week-by-week--so the better half doesn't figger out that I spent our daughter's college education on a new PR. So if I'm gonna race in 'em, how much do I need to get used to 'em? I'm not a princess-and-the-pea type of runner. I'll wear yo mama's army boots if I have to. Just curious about how much of a learning curve I'm dealing with. In general, I HATE the fit of Nikes, but I've run in Streak 6s relatively recently, and I feel OK with them.

Mid-January race... easy enough to lose the receipt in the Christmas tsunami...

Niceguy - the heel-to-toe drop on the Vaporfly OG is a stated 11mm. TBH, it feels awkward when walking around on them for the first time - kind of a forward-falling feeling.

Coach - For my 1st Vaporfly, I ran a 8 miler before racing on them. For the 2nd one, I just raced with them straight out of the box.

I am a heavy runner, that has PR’s that are close with or without Vaporfly. Few personal experiences on Vaporfly:

1. I definitely run at least 3-5 secs/mile faster in these shoes at the same HR.

2. I am a shuffler, so don’t get as much benefit. Folks who actually run can get more benefit, imo. I have seen that happen with two of my training partners.

3. I used to race in Lunartempos and then Streak6. My legs would be severely beat up in the last few miles of races. It is uncanny how fresh my legs feel in the last few miles of a marathon when wearing Vaporfly.

4. I get severe DOMS in the quads after racing in Vaporfly. Don’t know the reason. Never had quad issues when racing in other shoes.