Road Racing and Training Thread - Week Ending 10/13/19 (Chicago Edition)

Tremendous day in Chicago! Another cheer for all of you, plus for a few half marathons this week and last. You're all racing great.

I had hoped to have my own tale of triumph on Sunday, and in a way I do. Should have been a half marathon PR, but instead I ran 3 miles very carefully. Here is the ankle saga so far:

Sept. 16: twisted left ankle. 5 days off

Sept. 25: 6 miles, bad idea, shut back it back down

Sept. 28: x-rays, tech says its just a sprain

Oct. 3: specialist looks at x-rays and says the word "fracture" on the phone, I freak out

Oct. 9: in person, specialist says "basically just a sprain"

So this has been a roller coaster, but the diagnosis is a "very tiny" avulsion fracture of the fibula. Sports med doc says treat it like a sprain, which at this point I can start easing back into running very carefully. I did 1 mile Friday, off Saturday, 3 miles Sunday, off today, probably 2 miles tomorrow. It is definitely getting better.

Gotta be patient I guess. Long term is a spring half, so no rush for serious training yet. Just gotta get moving a little for mental health and to keep the dogs happy.

statfanatic wrote:

I don't think that saying is about pace nearly as much as effort. It should be *relatively* easy to get through 20 at your goal pace, but compared to that first 20 the last 6.2 is a lot harder and requires a lot more both physically and mentally.

Full disclosure I haven't run a marathon, but I'm confident it's the same idea as saying racing a 10k doesn't start until mile 4, and I have done that.

I think that's what it is, but I still think it's kind of silly.

I've heard the more apt "The marathon is two halves. The second half starts at mile 20."

That would be accurate from my lone experience (where the wheels came off in the 21st mile).

It is obviously kind of silly to pretend the race hasn't started until mile 20 when you consider the % of outcomes between competitors that are already resolved by mile 20. Even with my dreadful last 10K in April I still had 95% of the field beat just by getting to mile 20 in the time I did.

THOUGHTSLEADER wrote:

It is obviously kind of silly to pretend the race hasn't started until mile 20 when you consider the % of outcomes between competitors that are already resolved by mile 20. Even with my dreadful last 10K in April I still had 95% of the field beat just by getting to mile 20 in the time I did.

The point of evaluating the race like that isn't to consider the % of outcomes resolved by x point. If you're going into a race with a place goal then time should be more or less irrelevant, and vice versa. In other words:

"The race doesn't start until mile 20" is a way to evaluate yourself against a time goal.

"What I do in the first 20 miles is crucial because it puts me in position for a goal place of x" is a way to evaluate yourself against a place goal.

If you flip the metric you are using to evaluate yourself with the type of desired outcome above, then you end up with an inconsistency. That doesn't mean it's a silly metric for someone else with a different type of goal than you have to use.

I think looking at Rupp and Stinson's races in Chicago helps illustrate this. If Rupp was going in solely worried about running 2:08 he would have approached the race differently. Where he was placed in comparison to the field for the first 20 miles wouldn't have mattered, all that would have mattered was putting himself in a position at mile 20 that balanced having enough in the tank and having a fast enough split to run 2:08. However, he clearly was there to compete for the win, or at least a top 5 spot. So he went with a pace that was probably a bit of a stretch to give himself a chance at the finishing place he wanted.

Stinson on the other hand was pretty vocal about going in with a specific time goal, and never really seemed worried about too much else. He went out at the right pace, let everyone else do whatever they wanted to because that's out of his control, and executed well to achieve his stated time goal. If you flip their goal outcomes both guys would have failed pretty miserably. Rupp would've clearly gone too hard too early and Stinson would've relegated himself to an outside the top 10 finish before the racing even started. But looking at it in terms of what they each wanted to accomplish with the race, both approaches made sense, even if they weren't equally successful.

I see what you're saying for sure.

I don't think what I'm saying with the race starting before mile 20 does not mean you run anyone else's race before mile 20. It just means you maximize your effort and leave enough left for the final 10K to a) be in position to have a goal time b) have enough in reserve to execute the goal time. I can't really get behind that hitting that first 20 miles right isn't a big undertaking (because it is).

So , we basically agree, but when someone says the race starts now..for me that has more of the connotation of races where its sit-and-kick and everyone starts even (e.g. a 1500 race with guys who run 4:00 that goes out in 3:27 for 1200) than a marathon where a lot of your success can made or broken by how well you handled the first 20.

Stone - you've been coming around nicely the last few weeks and it seems that volume exceeds expectations, so all looks good to me. OR - Glad to hear your on the upswing hamstring wise, but don't get ahead of yourself too much! JQ - The casualness with which you reported such a big half marathon PR and how it felt for you make me scared about what you have in store in the future. Expect great things. Sub6 - Beastly Napper - Beastly RunGuyMidwest - Beastly Slo - Beastly Darkwave & DrCrusher - good luck with the tuneup halves this weekend!

jot quill wrote:

GT: Wow that's a killer tues workout, fast miles off 1 min rest and some mean volume of work

Thanks for the call out for the only thing this week that I couldn't finish properly. (haha)

Sub 6:00 wrote:

GT - That’s some solid, consistent, smart training you’ve been putting together. Where did you hit that 17 miler? Bostons are great.

Thanks. For a second there I forgot you were familiar with my area and I was confused why you would have any interest. Ha. It was just from my front door, which is actually in a more...'fabulous' neighborhood to the south of your hometown. I wanted to leave wiggle room for anything from 14-17mi for the run depending on how I felt so it was a 10mi loop through 6 of the municipalities surrounding me (To Hilton, into Campbell, to 11, to the zoo and golf course, down the west side of the course, past home, then a second loop back around the zoo and golf course). The perk of a 5AM Sunday start is I can run basically down the middle of any of these roads if I wanted to and not worry about their usual traffic. I do a lot of running up and around the back of the zoo. I'm not sure how I got into that habit but it's pretty ingrained now.

BHV - Yes, the marathon starts at mile 20. To answer your question...yes, I have dropped the hammer at mile 20. Did it at Richmond 2017. It is the most awesome feeling I have ever experienced. There is nothing like being in complete control and ready pounce at that point in the race. The last 10k was like a dream. I want to experience this again...only at a faster pace. Shamrock 2018 was very similar, but the wind in the last few miles took some of the spunk out of my legs.

Amazing racing by everyone on the thread - lots of PR's.

Male / 40 yrs / 176 lbs

Goals (Still):

1. Sub 3 marathon in 2019

2. Sub 1:25 half in 2019

M - 6 recovery. Everything hurts. Hip flexor and the right quad is in quite bad shape. Somehow make it around my 6 mile route with a few breaks in between

Tu - 9 easy - Things are definitely feeling better. Didn't run until the evening which ensured that I had recovered well.

W - 7 easy.

Th - 3.7 easy - Feeling the sniffles again.

F - 4.1 easy - Intended to go out for 8 miles, but cut it short as I began to get a headache along with the sniffles.

Sa - 7 easy

Su - 17 easy along a slightly hilly route. Not my smartest idea, suffered for the last 2 miles with the sniffles and quad soreness

Weekly distance: 53.8 miles

Weekly time: 7:40 hours

Popping in for an update. First off, I'm floored by the racing successes this week. I'm inspired, and feel reading the race reports Reason #134327 why this thread is awesome.

Cross training has been going relatively well. I'm lifting and getting some time in on the elliptical. I think the posterior tibial injury has progressed to the point that I think a little running may be on the 2 week horizon, barring any further setbacks.

That said, I'm going through a major health scare this week. I'm a Crohn's patient, though I've essentially been in complete remission since I had a small portion of small/large intestine removed in 2007. Sunday night I had a sudden onset of symptoms that I believed was an intestinal blockage. It came out of nowhere. I went into the ER and a CT scan confirmed the blockage. It's been a roller coaster from there. So far I've escaped surgery (literally by seconds, thanks to a second opinion that came in just as I was about to be put under), though at this point there's some uncertainty as to what caused the blockage in the first place.

But it's all been good news since Monday morning. The blockage cleared today (I've never been so happy to declare I farted), and with any luck I'll be home in the next day or two.

jewbacca: Wow man, glad you are ok! Hope it all turns out well.

Take care, jewbacca. Fart all you want. We'll make more.

Great to hear from you, jewbacca. Best of health and best of success to you.

Sub 6:00, RGM, Napper, JQ, and slo - Fantastic racing this past weekend. I really enjoyed reading the race reports.

jewbacca - Hope you have a speedy recovery on all fronts. I have a close and long time friend with Crohn's who was pretty miserable until he got a proper diagnosis.

As for me, it seems I must have suffered a quad strain or something and it took me a while to realize that I needed to take a break from running to rehab this injury. I may got for a short test run this evening to see how it goes. Hopefully I will get back into a good groove and start posting in this thread regularly.

Hey Smoove, mind if I pick your brain for some information around Daniels' Plan A training plan? I only have the third edition and have been using the 2Q as a guide for my past marathon builds. I think this next time around I would like to try something more like the plan A (lots of T workouts) but on a four week cycle with every fourth week an easy mileage week. Later in the plan I would like to mix in some of the M pace workouts for some specificity. I'd like to know if Plan A follows any particular cycle for the workouts. The 2Q is a three week cycle rotating through I work, T work, and M work. Any info or insight you can provide would be greatly appreciated.

Fixed it for you GB.

Guy Broman wrote:

jewbacca: Wow man, glad you are ok! Hope it all comes out .

Smoove wrote:

Fixed it for you GB.

Guy Broman wrote:

jewbacca: Wow man, glad you are ok! Hope it all comes out .

JB - If you’re having trouble pooping I’d recommend the schnitzel followed by 22 miles at marathon pace. It will come right out.

Just thought I'd make some comments even though late.

To everyone that raced this weekend. Just WOW!!! Way to kick some butt. I could go on and on. Great job!!!

GT&RRR: From the looks of both of your training you guys are going to kill it in Indy. Win or lose, I think you both are going to run great.

Stone, GNR1, OR: Looking good!

Coach Jeff: LOL next time yell BOO! when you go by.

Darkwave & : Very impressive

drcrusher: Good luck this weekend.

angryjohnny: Be careful doing to much atm if you are still recovering.

angryjohnny wrote:

Smoove wrote:

Fixed it for you GB.

JB - If you’re having trouble pooping I’d recommend the schnitzel followed by 22 miles at marathon pace. It will come right out.

Solid morning chuckles, also glad to hear things are on the upside JB!

outsiderunner wrote:

BHV - Yes, the marathon starts at mile 20. To answer your question...yes, I have dropped the hammer at mile 20. Did it at Richmond 2017. It is the most awesome feeling I have ever experienced. There is nothing like being in complete control and ready pounce at that point in the race. The last 10k was like a dream. I want to experience this again...only at a faster pace. Shamrock 2018 was very similar, but the wind in the last few miles took some of the spunk out of my legs.

OR - This isn't surprising coming from you. Your fliers probably really help with that. Makes me glad that I did my Saturday long run similar to your fliers (same spirit, just slower than you). Hopefully that will pay dividends later.

The whole "best place" vs. "best finishing time" explanation above makes sense to me. Pretty much anyone that gaps me to the point of disappearing in the first 20 miles is probably never to be seen again no matter what I do. But if my goal isn't to beat those guys (who am I kidding anyway!) and I have a time goal in mind, then yes, I suppose I want to shoot for relatively even splits assuming a flat-ish course.

I don't have a lot of marathon experience yet but my best effort was in Phoenix which was a net downhill first half and flat second half. I'd say the first 23 miles felt pretty good but OMG the last 3.2 felt like a death march. Incredibly my last mile split was only 6 seconds slower than my average pace for the race despite running that mile MUCH harder than any other mile. It felt like I was running 10 minute miles when in reality I had just barely slowed down. Oddly enough, I positive split the race by only 60 seconds despite the first half being downhill.

Popping in... been a crazy week! I've been travelling for work and had my head down for that reason. I'll post my week tomorrow and the leaderboard after that.

But, wanted to shout out to everyone re: Chicago.

Inspired racing by all. This thread is a great resource for inspiration and dedication. Great job to all!

M/36/145

Goals - Get faster, run further

"You like carbs huh? - Are there carbs in beer? THEN YES!" - An adaptation from Elf...

Great week for me last week, even though we're mostly through this one already before I've posted. Hit a new mileage high, had a GREAT long run for me, and just felt awesome all around. This weather breaking has just been phenomenal.

M - 8.11 at 7:32 - half on gravel trails

Tu - 4am at 7:26, PM - 3 mile WU, 6x1mile (541, 540, 539, 541, 537, 538), 1.6 mile CD

W - 7.14 at 7:24

Th - 2 WU, 4 mile tempo (legs were tired, but pushed through it) avg 5:57, 2 CD

F - 7.1 at 7:49

Sa - 6 at 7:20 on XC course

Su - 13 miles - progressed from 722 down to 551 (mile 12) with a CD mile at 6:45... this was a great run on gravel trail.

Total 65.6 miles - Beat my old score by 3 miles... woo hoo!

This week will be considerably lighter and probably not have a workout in it, but that's ok, a down week is fine.