The Ingebrigtsen's prove that the East African 'natural born runner' superiority is a myth. Here's why.

Coevett wrote:

-Are you really denying that doping is 'particularly rife' in East Africa???? That's even more insane than your belief that EPO doesn't work!!

-I've explained to you before about East African crosscountry domination in the 80's. John Ngugi was the first African to win the world cross country more than once, and then of course won Gold in Soul, so the best example of the 'take over' of East Africans. I'm sure you are aware that he was later suspended for evading doping controls. Other names from the 80's later were busted. Paul Kipkoech, another 80's star, died mysteriously at only 32. Those who say Ethiopians and Kenyans could not have been blood doping int he 80's are extremely naieve.

-NonAfricans are closing the gap. Times are getting faster in traditional countries such as GB and Aus/NZ, depth is getting bigger. Something like eight British guys have ran under 1:46 already this year. Ten years ago I don't think a single Brit did. Not even in the Golden Days did we have that depth. Then there are junior talents like Max Burgin, Kane Elliott, Ethan Hussey in GB, and similarly exciting talents in places like Australia. Ethan Hussey is only 16 and has ran 1:49/3:46 and 14:29 (the last on the road when he was 15). Jakob certainly is closing the gap on the best Africans, you can see that with every race. At 1500 he's only behind potatoe Tim now and getting nearer each time. Unless you mean the EPO peak era times and Kiprop, which kind of negates your point to any sane and intelligent person. In a well paced race Jakob would have ran 3:28 at Monaco.

rekrunner wrote:

I'm denying that it is "particular".

Once again, "EPO doesn't work" are your words, not mine.

Your explanation of East African domination is too incomplete to be considered an explanation.

It would be naive to believe your uninformed allegations of East African blood doping in the 1980s.

Non-Africans are not closing the gap.

Jakob is one European, and not yet faster than Europeans of the 1980s, nor non-Africans like Willis and Solinsky.

1:46 is also not closing the gap.

Regarding depth in GBR:

Between 1985-1988, GBR had 13 athletes below 3:38

Between 2009-2012, GBR had 11athletes below 3:38

Since 2017, GBR had 11 athletes below 3:38.

Of all the events, East African men have dominated the least (measured by both quality and quantity) in the 800m/1500m.

Before getting too excited about Jakob closing the gap on East Africans, he should first create a gap on non-Africans of the 1980s, and non-Africans of this decade.

Natural Talents wrote:

One proud Norwegian father with a different mentality then other Non-Africans of the last several decades and determines that he will make his sons the best. “If the African teenagers can do it why can’t my Norwegian ones”.

Forgive my English as I present my argument, but I am a native Spanish speaker.

• Filip and Henry already showed that one European family with elite genetics could compete clean with African rivals who are at least to a large part doped up. Now with the years of experience of guiding the older brothers and learning through trial and error, the father Gjert as well as the mentorship of the brothers has produced the sensation that is Jakob

•For not one but THREE BROTHERS to match the best of Africa would indicate that elite level Europeans in the right environment of training and dedication ought to be as fast as the best Africans who we now know - for example Kiprop, Kiptum etc - have been doping.

•An exceptional talent like Jakob in the right environment has already achieved more than any legitimate 18 year old African, and he has done it clean in a country with rigorous testing standards - the opposite of East Africa. If his progression continues, as it has steadily for the last five years, he will surely smash the EPO peak era records of El G and Bekele. He could well achieve this before the age of 21 CLEAN.

•Although Jakob is clearly a once in a generation talent, and perhaps the greatest runner in history, it's unlikely that he can be THAT so much of a genetic outlier to other Europeans. If 18 year old Jakob can demonstrably run sub 3:30 and sub 13:00 clean then these times are surely achievable for other elite Non-African runners.

•And in fact Jakob's performances only seem 'unearthly' rather than simply genius, because of the decline of athletics and in particular middle and long distance running over the last few decades. Coe, Cram, Ovett, Ryun, Snell, Elliott etc. all would be running 3:26 or faster today CLEAN. In fact, all ran equivalent times or displayed similar talent before EPO had even been invented, and in the case of Elliott and Snell before blood doping was even a thing.

• However, we do not in all honesty know that Africans have ever ran these kind of times without doping. Further, the decline in European times was in large part due to the African doping fueled domination, itself justified and masked by the 'natural superiority' fabrication.

• We may say that Keino first showed the 'natural talent' of Africans and he is widely credited with initiating the 'African invasion' but unfortunately there are concerns that have come to light with the traditional narrative.

•One dodgy Dutch sports scientist decided to go to Kenya and 'prove' that they were genetically superior runners to the rest of the world. Up to that point, East Africans had shown nothing, and were regularly employed as pacemakers for European races simply because whilst durable and fit in numbers, they appeared unable to produce a truly competitive runner. Within a decade, the sports scientist had fulfilled his own lucrative prophesy and produced stars such as Keino.

•In early 68, Keino and other top Kenyan stars, including Rudisha's father, forced the Dutchman out, claiming that he had colonial attitudes and was garnering all the credit. Suddenly, Keino and the other star's form deserted them. Finally, Keino went back to the Dutchman grovelling for an apology, and he was restored as head coach of the Kenyan Olympic team just in time.

•Although the form of the top Kenyans quickly returned, Keino himself was suffering in Mexico. Collapsing in the 10000m, and apparently near to death, he was confined to bed in hospital seriously ill. Yet to everbody's surprise, he decided to enter the 1500m and take on his great rival Ryun, who had dominated him in previous races. According to legend, Keino escaped from his hospital ward and ran to the stadium at the last moment, only managing to line up for the final with seconds to spare. Ryun was shocked and concerned at the sight of his great foe risen from his death bed, and chose to ignore Kenio when he raced to the front, pursuing an apparently insane pace. Ryun genuinely believed that Kenio would collapse if he gave chase.

•Further mystery surrounds the Kenyan 1968 team and the reputation of Kenio. According to Charlie Francis, the coach of Ben Johnson, the IAAF conducted drug tests for the first time for most of the competing athletes (doping rules had however not yet been established) and found that both the Jamaican and the Kenyan teams were ALL doped to the gills with steroids. Kenio himself recently was charged with stealing millions of dollars in his position as head of the Kenyan Rio Olympic team that was intended for the support of young athletes.

•East Africa begins dominating distance running in the 80's, beginning with cross country quickly translated to success on the track. An example of this supposed 'natural African invasion' is John Ngugi, xcountry star and then Champion in Seoul. Unfortunately for the 'natural born runner' hypothesis, Ngugi, like several of the 80's xcountry stars, was suspended for doping violations.

•Whilst East Africans had success in championships, it was in the 90's that they started to apparently demonstrate a capacity to take running into another level with extraordinary times and world records. However, this coincided almost exactly with the introduction of EPO, and the now confirmed part that drug plays in the culture of African running, with numerous doping busts in Morocco and Kenya, and the likes of Ethiopia exempt surely only because of the complete absence of testing.

•Another reason to be doubtful of the 'East African' running genes myth is the success of North Africans, in particular Moroccans in the 90s - above all El G. Not only would it be an unbelievable coincidence that the two most talented genetic groups both happen to reside in the same continent (and a continent known to be rife with doping) but it is known that North Africans, particularly Moroccans, are much more closely related genetically to Europeans than they are to East Africans.

rekrunner wrote:

These are more examples of the circles I spoke about on the previous page.

Rather than addressing these two problems with the original post with substantial arguments of merit:

- The Ingebrigtsens have only shown so far that it is possible for Norwegians to run almost as fast as Europeans were running in the early to mid-1980s.

- Replacing one "myth" with the alternative "myth" that the fastest East Africans would be running the same times as the Europeans of the 1980s, but for drugs

we end up talking about strawmen like "EPO doesn't work" (which I don't say and don't generally believe), and if I have a "placebo" hypothesis -- which ironically would be an argument that "EPO works", because placebo effect is still an effect.

Armstronglivs wrote:

It is almost comical. The method is to deny everything - and then deny that he has done that. A dialogue is impossible because whatever he just said isn't what he just said - including what he just said. Whew. It is like trying to wrestle with a cloud of gas.

rekrunner wrote:

It was not that hard to understand:

"EPO doesn't work" are Coevett's words, not mine.

"placebo" is Subway's word, not mine.

Subway's word, apparently meant to back up Coevett's words, appears to me to contradict Coevett's words.

If you want to understand me, then you should read my words, in the context with which they are said.

Armstronglivs wrote:

So the Master of Double Negatives (which is a device for not saying what you are in fact saying, or vice versa, saying what you are not saying) says he "doesn't believe" and "doesn't say" that EPO "doesn't work", which necessarily suggests he does say (sort of) and does believe that EPO does work. (Or maybe he is really saying nothing? That, too, is possible.) But, in the same breath, he says he doesn't have a "placebo hypothesis", because that would be saying EPO "works" because it has "an effect". And he apparently isn't saying that, that EPO works - despite what you just read what he just said. Has anyone ever worked so hard to be misunderstood? It would take Sherlock Holmes to track down what this man really means, such is his resolute determination to remain utterly obscure.