Let my explain using math why Jim Walmsley's 64:00 is NOT impressive

zzzz wrote:

The critics should lay off, and be happy that he's doing ultra. All the talk of what 2:05 marathoners would do misses the point that Walmsley actually already proves a lot of the critics' frequent contention that distance running talent is distance running talent. He is arguably the most talented US runner in terms of raw running talent to dedicate his prime mid-20s years to ultras, and he ends up being the one to put up the most impressive performances in the races that matter in the US. Yes, he has more raw talent than Hawks, King (less focused, inspired Sage Canaday's any surface-any distance, also started ultras past his prime). Canadian Krar did middle distance in college with performances similar to Walmsley (faster mile PR), but got into ultras in his 30s.

Would you mind explaining why you think J Dubs has more talent than Hawks?

ThatAverageRunner wrote:

If walmsley’s 100 mile skill was on a flat road Courses I’d agree. But Western States has a crazy amount of elevation gain. Climbing in the mountains is a lot different than flat road running. I think that’s why it’s so impressive he went from the Western states CR to the half in such a short amount of time.

Its basically almost an entirely different sport.

western states does not have a crazy amount of elevation gain, compared to other competitive 100 milers. it's considered a flattish course where a lot of hiking isn't required. it's also not really in the mountains. it starts around 6500' and climbs to 9000' ish for a short time but most of it is under 6000' and it finishes around 1300'.

what makes it hard is that it's very hot when you get to the hard part of the course, and there is a lot that can go wrong.

but still, your point holds true that OP was wrong to compare 13.1 to 100 with 3.1 to 26.2.

Wow you really shouldn't believe gossip you read on the internet. But of course "zzzz" still thinks Jim makes 200K + a year. Clueless idiot. Jim had 4 years in college to run a sub 29:00 10km and to run faster than 13:52. But he didn't. What was his best place at NCAA DI Cross Country? One would think a great future trail runner would excel at 10km cross country.... After Northface 50 was cancelled in early November Jim knew his next race could be the Houston half. How far did he even run at UTMB in the summer before he dropped out? He was not racing ultras for 5 months going into Houston. You think ultra training high mileage base work isn't decent training to run fast at an event that is 99% aerobic? Then again you also probably think Western States is a mountain run with alot of climbing. You say Jim's 'bread and butter' is the marathon but he has yet to race a marathon. The only evidence we have of him on the roads at a longer distance was his horrible finish at the IAAF World 100km. It seems like any regulated/IAAF/USATF race with competitive depth and drug testing for the top runners is a flop for him.

RUICK wrote:

You say Jim's 'bread and butter' is the marathon but he has yet to race a marathon. The only evidence we have of him on the roads at a longer distance was his horrible finish at the IAAF World 100km. It seems like any regulated/IAAF/USATF race with competitive depth and drug testing for the top runners is a flop for him.

Jim's confidence melts like butter in the sun when he mets real competition. That's why he is doing that FKT BS in the Grand Canyon.

So what do people think he is earning? I always assumed it's a lot because HOKAs are so ridiculous expensive.

Butterfly wrote:

So what do people think he is earning? I always assumed it's a lot because HOKAs are so ridiculous expensive.

For as great a runner as Jim Walmsley is he should at least be earning ONE MILLION DOLLARS. As for the Hokas, I have 2,534 miles on the pair I am wearing right now. Jim may have to take a pay cut if this keeps up!!

Butterfly wrote:

RUICK wrote:

You say Jim's 'bread and butter' is the marathon but he has yet to race a marathon. The only evidence we have of him on the roads at a longer distance was his horrible finish at the IAAF World 100km. It seems like any regulated/IAAF/USATF race with competitive depth and drug testing for the top runners is a flop for him.

Jim's confidence melts like butter in the sun when he mets real competition. That's why he is doing that FKT BS in the Grand Canyon.

So what do people think he is earning? I always assumed it's a lot because HOKAs are so ridiculous expensive.

I work at a running store. Hoka shoes are on par with other brands in terms of price.

10xleverage wrote:

Would you mind explaining why you think J Dubs has more talent than Hawks?

Sure. In high school, Walmsley was Footlocker finalist, one of the top runners in the nation. He won Mt. SAC, the biggest in season high school meet. Hawks won state titles in small state Utah in not very impressive times. Walmsley would have been highly recruited out of high school, Hawks not so much. In college, Hawks ran a 13:51, but it was a 12th place, so presumably more of a time trial like situation for him. Jim would have smoked him in that 5000 that was linked to on the previous page, worth about 13:35. Hawks wouldn't have been able to run near 13:51 going out at 14:15 pace for the first 4000, and if he tried to lead at 13:51 pace, he wouldn't have been ablr. to hold it, since he needed to follow the draft of a line of runners to get to 13:51.

Also Hawks had a 2 year mission before coming back to college, so he was overage in comparison. Hawks had an optimal, steady, consistent progression to reach his college PRs. Walmsley not so much, seemly relying on his talent plus shorter buildups to achieve what he did in both high school and college. In high school Walmsley was inexplicably slow in track, and in college inexplicably slow in cross country, so that’s where I get the lack training consistancy yhat would have propelled him to even better performances.

Hawks was quite slow for his distance chops in the mile/1500 both in high school and college. He was running 4:27 to 4:39 in indoor miles in college!?, though 3:52.9 for 1500 is more repectable. At Southern Utah, he was training super high mileage with Cam "190mpw" Levins, so that implies he was running much closer to his talent ceiling than Walmsley.

Hawks' 28:53 was his best mark, worth about a 13:44. But again, that's slower than what I think Walmsley's 5000 PR performance was worth, over typical NCAA runner age, and tapping out on super high mileage to get there.

Dromano19 wrote:

Butterfly wrote: I always assumed it's a lot because HOKAs are so ridiculous expensive.

I work at a running store. Hoka shoes are on par with other brands in terms of price.

First I've heard of Hokas being expensive. Like you said, they're right in line with the other brands.

You just listed a bunch of guys that don't have amazing range.

I said marathon is CLOSER to Jim's "bread and butter." Yes, he had 4 years in college sure but if you know anything about the Air Force Academy, your freshman year is essentially shot. It's a throwaway year. If you make it through uninjured and on par with your HS PR's it is considered a success. Plus no redshirting or medical redshirt or any other way to pull off some sort of 7 year stint in college to earn a post collegiate contract.

LR threads about him making 250k are just way off. Pro contracts in the ultra world are highly performance incentivized with low guaranteed salaries.

TNF 50 was cancelled like 2 weeks or less before the event. He was training for ultras at that point. High volume altitude training is a great base for marathon training but for half marathon training you have to get to sea level and get speed work in which he did but not until December so therefore I say if he truly had 5 months he would have been at sea level a lot more. His ultra base just made it possible for him to run 64 min on 1.5 months of speed work which really equates to a maximum of 8 speed workouts if he was pushing the envelope and cutting mileage. Clearly he wasn't though because he was still doing canyon work in December. Western has a lot of downhill but also a lot of climbing but yes it starts at 7000 ft and ends at 1000 ft so clearly downhill.

Okay Jim. Maybe the 3k/steeple and 5k is more of your "bread and butter" we may ask? What was your best finish at NCAA Cross Country? Did they do any testing this year at Western States? Lake Sonoma?

Mastaclaz wrote:

Okay Jim.

Maybe the 3k/steeple and 5k is more of your "bread and butter" we may ask?

What was your best finish at NCAA Cross Country?

Did they do any testing this year at Western States? Lake Sonoma?

Not Jim. Wouldn’t wanna be Jim. I think running 100 miles is wreckless and I would never do it.

Maybe the steeple would be his “bread and butter” if he stuck to it. Keep in mind he ran the steeple all of 3-4 times in college and ran 8:41. He did it on a whim because it was the easiest way to NCAAs. It still is. Jim got smoked in cross. I won’t deny that but cross is honestly very dependent on your team. It’s not an individual sport like track. Especially at a mid tier school like Air Force in the mountain region where your best shot at NCAAs is more likely as a team than as an individual.

Insinuating that he dopes is ridiculous. There isn’t a shred of evidence to support that and I certainly hope that a 13:52 guy could run faster than 64 min doping lol. Heck I could run 64 min if I doped. GTFOH you’re an idiot.

If you're not Jim it appears you know a lot of little details about him. Did I touch a nerve? A 64:00 at the Houston half doesn't warrant any testing or suspicion unless it was done by a female. It will be interesting to see if Jim ever gives a competitive road marathon a shot where he could place in the top 10 and be earning prize money. Jim ran the IAAF World 100km and got smoked and he ran USA Cross Country and got smoked. Those races test. I simply asked if there was testing at Western States this year? I know there was testing the year he dropped out and there has been testing at UTMB (a race he also dropped out of this year but has finished as high as 5th in the past).

Mastaclaz wrote:

If you're not Jim it appears you know a lot of little details about him. Did I touch a nerve?

A 64:00 at the Houston half doesn't warrant any testing or suspicion unless it was done by a female. It will be interesting to see if Jim ever gives a competitive road marathon a shot where he could place in the top 10 and be earning prize money.

Jim ran the IAAF World 100km and got smoked and he ran USA Cross Country and got smoked. Those races test.

I simply asked if there was testing at Western States this year?

I know there was testing the year he dropped out and there has been testing at UTMB (a race he also dropped out of this year but has finished as high as 5th in the past).

Wow what an astute observation. Maybe I’m one of the few thousand people who know Jim on a personal level. And maybe that’s why you should stfu and stop talking about things you don’t know anything about. You’re a joke. Making accusations you can’t back up based on some bad races where it’s clear the only thing that is certain in those races is that it was all or nothing for Jim. Which is how he likes to race and honestly is smart when it comes to ultras. Why obliterate your legs if you’re not performing optimally? Marathoners drop all the time.

Besides doping isn’t what it was in the 80s. No one who is smart about it outright dopes anymore with clearly banned substances. The world of micro-doping requires a lot of laboratory work and careful scheduling and titration of dosing. In other words, you need the support of a small capable congolomerate with appropriate funding and very few trusted people who are in the know. Jim’s apparatus isn't even close to capable of that.

Why don’t you just go back to running your 16 min 5ks and stop making asinine accusations.

Psh please wrote:

Besides doping isn’t what it was in the 80s. No one who is smart about it outright dopes anymore with clearly banned substances. The world of micro-doping requires a lot of laboratory work and careful scheduling and titration of dosing. In other words, you need the support of a small capable congolomerate with appropriate funding and very few trusted people who are in the know. Jim’s apparatus isn't even close to capable of that.

Ahhh...it sounds like the Cococino Cowboys have some knowledge in micro doping. That is very interesting.

Confused liberal wrote:

I don’t understand. I am a liberal but my sense is that most people here are conservatives. Yet, the Klan was made up of southern democrats so this site is really dominated by anti Klan people.

and when the national democratic party started supporting racial justice and equality those southern democrats...joined the republican party.

bump.

Aaaah please wrote:

Psh please wrote:

Besides doping isn’t what it was in the 80s. No one who is smart about it outright dopes anymore with clearly banned substances. The world of micro-doping requires a lot of laboratory work and careful scheduling and titration of dosing. In other words, you need the support of a small capable congolomerate with appropriate funding and very few trusted people who are in the know. Jim’s apparatus isn't even close to capable of that.

Ahhh...it sounds like the Cococino Cowboys have some knowledge in micro doping. That is very interesting.

Aaaah please wrote:

Psh please wrote:

Besides doping isn’t what it was in the 80s. No one who is smart about it outright dopes anymore with clearly banned substances. The world of micro-doping requires a lot of laboratory work and careful scheduling and titration of dosing. In other words, you need the support of a small capable congolomerate with appropriate funding and very few trusted people who are in the know. Jim’s apparatus isn't even close to capable of that.

Ahhh...it sounds like the Cococino Cowboys have some knowledge in micro doping. That is very interesting.

Lol not a coconino anything. And that’s not knowledge just common sense. A couple of running buddies with small shoe contracts simply could not afford to dope. Too much money has to be spent to fund operations and to keep everyone quiet. Hoka would go out of business.

But yeah your theory on someone explaining how they are micro doping on LR seems sound too. Very logical. Are you a detective? You have a gift.

maths strike again wrote:

cotton shirt wrote:

and, for the record:

Abdelkader El Mouaziz (MAR) ran 2:06:46 but his 5km pr is 14:03.49

Oleksandr Kuzin (UKR) ran 2:07:33 and his 5km pr is 14:01.83

Yi-yong Kim (KOR) ran 2:07:49 and his 5km pr is 14:10.52

Hiroshi Miki (JPN) ran 2:08:05 and his 5km pr is 14:04.39

Yohannes Gergish (ERI) ran 2:08:14 and his 5km pr is 14:46.71

Hicham Laqouahi (MAR) ran 2:08:27 and his 5km pr is 14:00.72

Vanderlei Cordeiro da Lima (BRA) ran 2:08:31 and his 5km pr is 14:00.41

Yaroslav Mushinski (MDA) ran 2:08:32 and his 5km pr is 14:14.85

Abdi Ibrahim Abdo (BRN) ran 2:08:32 and his 5km pr is 14:29.84

Brian Sell (USA) ran 2:10:47 but his 5km pr is 14:00.10

cheers.

You just listed a bunch of guys that don't have amazing range.

...and aren't global elites at ANY distance.

What an idiotic list. Proves the OP's point.