Renato, do you think Julien runs sub60 in Barcelona?
If not now then at least in the near future. His mindset is just incredible.
Renato, do you think Julien runs sub60 in Barcelona?
If not now then at least in the near future. His mindset is just incredible.
Does Dave Moorcroft seem like he was more talented than them?
I like this line "After an unsuccessful experiment with altitude training, he again returned to New Zealand, where he was able to train in a warm climate and carry out speedwork on “a first-class surface to avoid injury.”
He did the reverse Robertson and that led to his biggest breakthroughs.
Renato Canova wrote:
Not exactly. If they didn't decide to move Kenya and Ethiopia, never could achieve the results they were able to achieve till now.
Two examples : during the World Cross Country Championships (Juniors) 2007, Jake finished in position 46, 2'39" after the winner Asbel Kiprop.
And, if we look at WCCCh 2011 (won by Imane Merga in 33'50"), Jake was number 59 in 36'41" (2'51" slower), and Zane number 91 in 38'08" (4'18" slower). After living and training in high altitude with continuity, their PB in 10000m became very much closer to the PB of the best in the World, and in HM both of them ran around 1 hour (59'47" Zane, 60'01" Jake).
Without continuity in altitude, there is no way athletes of sea level can run fast as Kenyans and Ethiopians.
Yes, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to make it to ...
3:29.66 for 1500m (Nick Willis)
3:49.4 WR and 3:49.08 for the mile (John Walker)
13:12 WR for 5000m (Dick Quax)
27:41 for 10000m (Dick Quax)
... without "continuity in" altitude.
rojo wrote:
I can't believe no one has linked to this article on them from deadspin that came out 2 days ago.
https://deadspin.com/a-decade-in-kenya-turned-two-teens-from-new-zealand-int-1822679686It's really a must-read if you are a Robertson fan. They literally just showed up in Africa with no credit card and no plan. Got robbed of almost all they had and found a way.
deadspinwrote:
We were different. It was tall poppy syndrome. New Zealand has that pretty bad. People sense you’re different. It’s funny, if we had lived in America, I think we would have been popular, but in New Zealand, if you don’t play rugby, you’re picked on. It happened in high school more because we stopped participating. Kids yeah, but teachers too were unfair to us. They called my mother claiming we were anorexic. It was just from the high mileage; it was ridiculous. My mother was furious. When we started winning national titles, teachers started treating us with respect, but it was too little too late. I hated high school. We sat for our finals in October 2006, and the next day were on a plane to Africa.
The main thing that comes across is their drive. Unreal. Check this out.
deadspin wrote:
Around that time, we got very sick drinking from a water hole that wasn’t clean. Maybe typhoid. It scared us—we went to bed on Friday and woke up Sunday night. It was the first time it [possibility of death] was real. Me and Zane forced ourselves to have a glass of water and half a banana each, and we had a talk— “If one of us doesn’t wake up, don’t worry. It’s okay. You continue on and achieve what we came to do. Let mom and dad know that we went out happy.” It did occur to me, I wondered if I could still get a scholarship to the States. That thought lasted until I was better. Two weeks later, I was definitely staying.
Did you notice the scathing comment about the Sub2HR...
YMMV wrote:
And to the morans that mention Mo in the context of altitude: he spends half the year or more away from his family to train at altitude.
Did you not see the Mo documentary, he sleeps in an altitude in Oregon, he sleeps in an altitude tent in Ethiopia.
Yeah, I thought that was a strange comment as I’m sure I remember reading that the Sub2 project (Yannis and his team) were the ones who solved Jake’s long term injury problem. I think it was his knee or calf from memory.
I thought the Sub2 project were also involved quite heavily in Zane’s sub60 half marathon. Less sure on that than the Jake injury solution as I’m sure I read that in an interview.
Did that project bomb then and doesn’t operate anymore?
Good point, they do have the exact form of the guys they're running with.
Let's face it, they have run 59:47 and 60:01 (several times) and look like they could go faster.
Guys from the '70s and '80s did run halfs but never broke 60. It wasn't until 1993 that anyone broke it and lots of greats like Yifter and Jones held it along the way to that.
What will they try next? wrote:
Renato Canova wrote:
Not exactly. If they didn't decide to move Kenya and Ethiopia, never could achieve the results they were able to achieve till now.
Two examples : during the World Cross Country Championships (Juniors) 2007, Jake finished in position 46, 2'39" after the winner Asbel Kiprop.
And, if we look at WCCCh 2011 (won by Imane Merga in 33'50"), Jake was number 59 in 36'41" (2'51" slower), and Zane number 91 in 38'08" (4'18" slower). After living and training in high altitude with continuity, their PB in 10000m became very much closer to the PB of the best in the World, and in HM both of them ran around 1 hour (59'47" Zane, 60'01" Jake).
Without continuity in altitude, there is no way athletes of sea level can run fast as Kenyans and Ethiopians.
Yes, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to make it to ...
3:29.66 for 1500m (Nick Willis)
3:49.4 WR and 3:49.08 for the mile (John Walker)
13:12 WR for 5000m (Dick Quax)
27:41 for 10000m (Dick Quax)
... without "continuity in" altitude.
You just made Renato's point. Other than 3:29, those are mediocre times for top Kenyans and Ethios.
High Country wrote:
What will they try next? wrote:
Yes, it would be IMPOSSIBLE to make it to ...
3:29.66 for 1500m (Nick Willis)
3:49.4 WR and 3:49.08 for the mile (John Walker)
13:12 WR for 5000m (Dick Quax)
27:41 for 10000m (Dick Quax)
... without "continuity in" altitude.
You just made Renato's point. Other than 3:29, those are mediocre times for top Kenyans and Ethios.
The Ethiopian Mile record is not even a second faster.. 3:49 isn't mediocre for a Kenyan either.
It also depends if Renato means as fast in an absolute sense or just able to win races.
The Robertsons half times are also mediocre by African standards.
Half times have largely improved because of the removal of mental barriers.
Foster was an outstanding junior x-country runner. Won Southern Senior - 9 miles and Junior - 6 miles on the same day. Won World Junior x-country championship over John Bednarski, the winner the previous year.
Foster had been a promising high-school runner. Had anemia early in college career, when recovered, I believe won British Universities x-country.
Cavorty wrote:
Foster was an outstanding junior x-country runner. Won Southern Senior - 9 miles and Junior - 6 miles on the same day. Won World Junior x-country championship over John Bednarski, the winner the previous year.
Foster had been a promising high-school runner. Had anemia early in college career, when recovered, I believe won British Universities x-country.
Sorry should be Beford, not Foster first para
Prior to the late 1980’s there was no prize money to be won in amateur athletics.
These days the vast majority of elite distance runners are not training for the 1500m, 5000m or 10,000m because these events don’t offer that much prize money. The money is in the half marathon & marathon and that’s why at least 90% of African athletes train for those events.
Jake Roberston, Zane Robertson, Julien Wanders & Sondre Moen are all living and training at altitude in Kenya. Can anyone name four other whites guys who don’t train in Kenya that would match them?
Many years ago I met an elderly Kenyan man who said to me, “If you want to beat us, you have to train with us”.
Bedford was mediocre and then he crammed all his gains into a couple of years instead of ten. That doesn't mean he was more talented.
Foster liked to run but he wasn't promising with his 2:09-2:15 800s as a young teenager.
the most amazing talent they had was probably there drive to suceed . They believed by going to Kenya was the way to do it. So I say no they wouldn't have been as quick if they'd stayed . Just like those 70s guys all believed in the system they were using . A few beers and big milage worked . 1. because it had proven success and 2. because they believed it would work.
" It’s only about work ethic—if they work hard enough, they can do it in any country. The Kenyan lifestyle may not be necessary, but it made me a helluva lot stronger."
deadspinwrote:
We were different. It was tall poppy syndrome. New Zealand has that pretty bad. People sense you’re different. It’s funny, if we had lived in America, I think we would have been popular, but in New Zealand, if you don’t play rugby, you’re picked on. It happened in high school more because we stopped participating. Kids yeah, but teachers too were unfair to us. They called my mother claiming we were anorexic. It was just from the high mileage; it was ridiculous. My mother was furious. When we started winning national titles, teachers started treating us with respect, but it was too little too late. I hated high school. We sat for our finals in October 2006, and the next day were on a plane to Africa.
I don't get this thinking they would have been popular in the US?
Good thread, but the altitude debate is missing the point. The much more interesting question is, how did they manage to adapt to the point where they can handle the full training load several years later?
These kids just showed up as 3:50 / 3:54 1500 guys (or maybe a little slower). Nothing special, plenty of US high schoolers are at that level. They didn't just jump into full training with the world-class crew in Iten right away -- they'd be injured / broken in a few weeks.
The Deadspin article sheds a little bit of light:
"We were getting dropped every single day. Shaheen was very smart and he cared for us. He said, “Don’t train with me every day. It’s gonna kill you.” From that point, we jogged and did easy runs alone, and only joined him a couple times a week. It changed the way we thought—just because the program works for somebody doesn’t mean it works for you."
But I still don't think a 3:54 1500 guy is jumping in workouts with Shaheen with any regularity. Did they do separate workouts until they were ready? Is there a large crew of non-world-class runners (2nd- and 3rd-tier) runners in Iten they could train t with? etc?
I'd be really interested to learn more about how they adapted. Renato, do you have a perspective on this?
A lot of great track & field training stuff out there, you will regret if you missed it : https://goo.gl/jGwcYY
Jones was also working as an airline mechanic full time.