Was the Balboa Park Foot Locker course different in the 1980s?

Gotta bee wrote:

Huh man wrote:

You can't possibly believe that Drew Hunter is the best high school runner ever, can you?

let me guess Jim Ryun?

Jim Ryun is the best miler ever. However.......

Gerry Lindgren is the best high school runner ever.

He beat two then-current Olympic Champions in an exhibition XC race at Mt. SAC, he won the Olympic Trials, he ran 13:44 on a clay track, he ran less than 10 seconds off the World Record 5k, he lowered the HS 2-mile record by 42 seconds, he doubled 4:01 mile and 13:17 3-mile on a dirt track, he was the first American to win a 10,000m in international competition, he was ranked Top 10 in the world, etc. etc. etc.

All as a high-schooler.

And this was over 50 years ago!

Huh man wrote:

Gotta bee wrote:

to the people saying guys are puss*s and dont wanna run fast, explain the best high school runner ever in Drew Hunter only running 14:55 going really hard, might have been a little better if he was pushed 2 1/2 miles like riena was but 20 seconds off the record?

You can't possibly believe that Drew Hunter is the best high school runner ever, can you?

No, clearly Reuben Reina was.

4:05/8:58 is no joke as a HS runner.

That's why he still holds the course record 32 years later.

Do you really think that Jacobs will go faster than 8:58 in the next 8 months? Not a chance.

Liams Knee-son wrote:

The data suggests the exact opposite of Marc Davis being HEAD AND SHOULDERS above everyone except 2 guys the last 30+ years.

BTW, why isnt Mike Fout on that list? Didn’t he run 14:50????

Marc Davis winning an all time fictional XC race (which is kind of ridiculous anyway) is one argument. The other (and relavent argument for this thread) is that NONE OF THE ALL TIME HS KIDS IN THE LAST 30 YEARS ARE EVEN REMOTELY CLOSE to his times. I already listed all the guys in my prior post. Drew Hunter was not losing to Marc Davis by 20 seconds in an XC race his senior year.

Grant Fisher, Cheserek, Lukas V, etc. neither were they.

Good catch -- I left off Fout from my original list

No. Dirt is actually very fast. Out west it can be packed, with little or no slip.

The only time grass is faster is if it is cut low like a putting green.

The biggest difference is the kids race for place. This is primarily a function of the depth and the speed side capabilities at the top of the HS ranks.

dsrunner wrote:

No. Dirt is actually very fast. Out west it can be packed, with little or no slip.

The only time grass is faster is if it is cut low like a putting green.

The biggest difference is the kids race for place. This is primarily a function of the depth and the speed side capabilities at the top of the HS ranks.

Did you watch the FL video? From what I could tell the "dirt" at Balboa was not "packed". I believe Lane rolled her ankle at least three times because of the soft unstable surface.

Dr. Pepper wrote:

German Fernandez is one of the greatest high school track runners of all time, but was certainly better on the track than X-C.

Fernandez was not anywhere close to his ability at FL that year.

More indicative is how he demolished and ran away from Derrick and Puskedra at the Junior 8k champs a few months later.

runthenight wrote:

If I remember correctly, Fernandez made a big mistake by not wearing spikes at Balboa. Apparently it was slippery that year? I remember seeing that.

That was probably the primary reason for his relatively poor performance.

If I recall correctly, he slipped and fell down at the start, not realizing he could have worn spikes as the others did.

Bggyggbybyg wrote:

Huh man wrote:

You can't possibly believe that Drew Hunter is the best high school runner ever, can you?

No, clearly Reuben Reina was.

4:05/8:58 is no joke as a HS runner.

That's why he still holds the course record 32 years later.

Do you really think that Jacobs will go faster than 8:58 in the next 8 months? Not a chance.

I mean, there was probably less than 30 HS kids who ran faster than 8:58 (2 mile or 2 mile equivalent) last year, so it makes sense that Reina still has that record.

Yes, you will tell me that a lot of these sub 8:58 runners did not qualify for FootLocker last year because they were too slow (I mean, there are only 40 spots at FL after all) , but that doesn't explain anything.

And giusto did it in racing flats !!

Which makes a big difference wrote:

runthenight wrote:

If I remember correctly, Fernandez made a big mistake by not wearing spikes at Balboa. Apparently it was slippery that year? I remember seeing that.

That was probably the primary reason for his relatively poor performance.

If I recall correctly, he slipped and fell down at the start, not realizing he could have worn spikes as the others did.

No, German was told to wear spikes several times but he refused. His blunder.

Observer of facts wrote:

dsrunner wrote:

No. Dirt is actually very fast. Out west it can be packed, with little or no slip.

The only time grass is faster is if it is cut low like a putting green.

The biggest difference is the kids race for place. This is primarily a function of the depth and the speed side capabilities at the top of the HS ranks.

Did you watch the FL video? From what I could tell the "dirt" at Balboa was not "packed". I believe Lane rolled her ankle at least three times because of the soft unstable surface.

If the dirt was not packed, she would not have rolled her ankle, because soft dirt would give. Which leads one to believe it was in fact packed. Another thing, the grass that is there is cut very short like a putting green, have never seen grass cut that short anywhere in the Northeast unless the course is run on a golf course which rarely happens.

So, stop making excuses, course do not run slow, because courses do not run. (unless there is a major storm and it is a mudfest)

The course is hard to follow? The whole thing is flagged and marked. They run a course preview. What else do you need?

Reuben Reina is one of five Foot Locker male champs to go on to win multiple senior USA XC titles (the "real" ones, not the club split-off versions).

The other four gentlemen: Bob Kennedy, Todd Williams, Adam Goucher and Dathan Ritzenhein.

The results of Reina's two wins can be found here:

http://more.arrs.net/race/1835

In 1994, he beat Pat Porter and Todd Williams to the line, by one second and two seconds, respectively.

In 1996, he again won over Todd Williams, in a time of 29:06 on the hilly Stanford golf course venue. Williams had won the Olympic Trials 10000m that year and had run 27:31 on the track the year before.

Anyone who views the 1985 race video and doesn't see Reina's class jumping off the screen knows very little about this sport.

and '96 champs results:

http://more.arrs.net/race/150

First time poster? wrote:

The course is hard to follow? The whole thing is flagged and marked. They run a course preview. What else do you need?

Watch the races again. Both Lane and the boy's leader followed the gator off-course early on, and then Lane hesitated, slowing considerably later in the race, before being pointed in the right direction. Some sections were well marked; others not so much.

maybe observant, but..... wrote:

Observer of facts wrote:

Did you watch the FL video? From what I could tell the "dirt" at Balboa was not "packed". I believe Lane rolled her ankle at least three times because of the soft unstable surface.

If the dirt was not packed, she would not have rolled her ankle, because soft dirt would give. Which leads one to believe it was in fact packed. Another thing, the grass that is there is cut very short like a putting green, have never seen grass cut that short anywhere in the Northeast unless the course is run on a golf course which rarely happens.

So, stop making excuses, course do not run slow, because courses do not run. (unless there is a major storm and it is a mudfest)

According to the commentators, the course surface included wood chips (the sort used for landscaping to prevent run-off). Those areas would have been uneven and slow.

The dirt was also chewed up in various sections and quite uneven. The lower section (the dog park?) is the most obvious, but the hill also looked chewed up in places. Watch the videos again.

vid worth ten thousand words wrote:

Reuben Reina is one of five Foot Locker male champs to go on to win multiple senior USA XC titles (the "real" ones, not the club split-off versions).

...

Anyone who views the 1985 race video and doesn't see Reina's class jumping off the screen knows very little about this sport.

Yes, he was an animal. I think that his 5000m is 13:24 or something. That's less than 30 seconds away from the US record.

...and it's one second faster than what Fernandez ran as a College Freshman.

Why would he not be in the conversation as the best ever: 1:48/3:57/7:59 Indoor 3k/14:20 on a CC course? Other than Alan Webb, who can approach that range? Had he not gotten sick (Lyme?) before Pre his Senior year, he may have nailed down the #1 spot with a very fast mile. All indication was that he was ready to go at Pre. 2 weeks prior to that race he ran a 1:48/8:42 double.

Huh Man...who are your top 5, and where would Hunter fit in?