Who was/is Craig Virgin?

I love you, man!

That's good. I took statrus's list and did a little research. As you will observe, the names in those fields still dominate, by every way imaginable the Alltime US lists in track and on the roads - twenty five years later.

Mills wrote:

Whats wrong with alan Culpeppers mentality? What ISN'T wrong with his mentality? Too afraid to race in Europe, or world cross, or basically anywhere a few hundred miles out of boulder. I'm sorry, but he is never going to be world class if he doens't step out of his comfort zone a little bit. Culpepper needs to grow some balls and get out there and race the best in the world, or hes never going to get to the level he desires.

I think Culpepper needs to do exactly what he's been doing, not change his plan to suit some macho idea of what makes a world class runner. The man did a 2:09 in his very first marathon. When Salazar did that everyone thought he was God. Culpepper does it and he gets nothing but crap from a bunch of internet know-nothings.

How many sub 2:10 marathons have you run?

Zat0pek wrote:

I love you, man!

Zat, baby, you kill me, man! ... with your amens and love yous!

Regarding this silly Virgin debate ... come on! Isn't it possible, and probable, that he was BOTH arrogant/cocky/full of himself AND congenial/friendly to fans! Sure it is ... depending on the moon phase, what he had to eat that morning and whether or not you were an unthreatening HSer or someone trying to beat him. As an occasional schizo myself, I completely understand.

As far as his ability ... of course he wouldn't beat Meb's or Kennedy's PRs, but his CC titles and world rankings prove he could compete with just about anyone in the world at the time. I mean, that comparing eras shit is nuts ... obviously Zatopek would get beat by a ton of guys today, but does that diminish his greatness! Fuck no!

And of course, you CAN compare him as a HS 2-miler and I say he's the best ever. His 8:40.9 alone in the heat is probably better than what Lindgren and Nelson did over the distance (though Lindgren had pretty much no outdoor attempts). I don't want to open that can of worms, but for my money, I'll take Craig's senior year against any distance prep's season ever.

dsman wrote:

As far as his ability ... of course he wouldn't beat Meb's or Kennedy's PRs,

I could only imagine how the stadium would have rocked had Virgin run those time trials at Stanford. The guy was simply a brutal RACER.

That 10000 in Walnut is easily the best 10000 ever run by an American. Not fastest - BEST!

WoW,lotta tough muthas in those 2 races.

I wish I had my 81 NCAA results handy ... another incredible field. That was the meet where UTEP scored 17, with 80 OG 5k Silver medalist Nyambui, road megastar-to-be Musyoki and flaming star Motschwaretu. In the "pack" were guys from Pat Petersen, Keith Brantley, Don Janicki and Gerard Donakowski, to Brian Diemer, John Gregorek, Todd Harbor and Jim Spivey, to Yobes Ondieki (12 years away from 26:58!) and seemingly dozens of others with future world and US stardom ahead of them (we just didn't know it at the time).

Fine Culpepper can do what he wants, but I guess you agree then that its ok to take 2 months off of racing then go into the world championships/olympics, and at the same time be sharp enough to perform well.

I've always thought that Craig was the gutsiest US runner ever. Even more so than Pre. In Europe, Pre would almost always set the pace and get outkicked, yet Craig won both of his world cross titles in the last 200 meters. And this is a guy that never broke 4:00- that is pure guts.

I guess only that Culpepper has his own plan, it's a long term one, and it's working for him so far. I also guess that his life doesn't revolve around running.

But in the end any speculation on my part or yours about why he does what he does would be just that: speculation. Trying to fit him into some cookie cutter mold (read: Virgin) of what to do is silly since neither one of us knows what he wants. He's not Craig Virgin and he's not trying to be.

Regardless, 2:09:41 is 2:09:41. Even Virgin never ran that fast.

On that we agree.

dsman wrote:

I wish I had my 81 NCAA results handy ... another incredible field. That was the meet where UTEP scored 17, with 80 OG 5k Silver medalist Nyambui, road megastar-to-be Musyoki and flaming star Motschwaretu. In the \"pack\" were guys from Pat Petersen, Keith Brantley, Don Janicki and Gerard Donakowski, to Brian Diemer, John Gregorek, Todd Harbor and Jim Spivey, to Yobes Ondieki (12 years away from 26:58!) and seemingly dozens of others with future world and US stardom ahead of them (we just didn\'t know it at the time).

NCAA XC

1981

1. Mathews Motshwarateu (UTEP) So 28:46

2. Mike Musyoki (UTEP) Sr 28:47

3. Gabriel Kamau (UTEP) Jr 29:20

4. Mark Scrutton (Col) Jr 29:23

5. Graeme Fell (San Diego St) So 29:31

6. Alan Scharsu (Penn St) Sr 29:31 (1st American)

7. Suleiman Nyambui (UTEP) Sr 29:33

8. Gidemas Shahanga (UTEP) Fr 29:34

9. David Taylor (Ark) Sr 29:36

10. Richard Tuwei (Wash St) Fr 29:37

11. Ray Treacy (Prov) Sr 29:38

12. Vern Iwancin (Drake) Sr 29:41

13. Tom Downs (Cal) Jr 29:42 (2nd American)

14. Dave Daniels (UCLA) Sr 29:43 (3rd U.S.)

15. Steve Binns (Prov) Fr 29:45

16. Herb Wills (Fl St) Sr 29:45 (4th U.S.)

17. Chris Bunyan (Murray St) Jr 29:47

18. Richard Kaitany (Iowa St) Sr 29:48

19. Sam Ngatia (UTEP) Fr 29:50 (UTEP?s 6th man)

20. Thomas Maweu (UTEP) Jr 29:52 (UTEP?s 7th man)

21. Ibrahim Hussein (New Mex) So 29:55

22. Brendan Quinn (Prov) Sr 29:57

23. Dennis Stark (E Tenn) So 29:58

24. Tim Hacker (Wisc) Fr 29:59 (5th US)

25. Harrison Koroso (Az) Sr 30:00

Team

1. UTEP 17 (1-2-3-5-6)

2. Providence 109 (8-10-15-35-41)

3. Arkansas 175 (7-21-25-57-65)

4. Wisconsin 179 (17-20-40-49-53)

5. UCLA 187 (9-29-32-58-59

Average_Joe wrote:

I guess only that Culpepper has his own plan, it's a long term one, and it's working for him so far. I also guess that his life doesn't revolve around running.

I love it when people talk about Culpeppers "long term plan." He's 30. Exactly when does this plan start to kick in?

As malmo and a few others can attest, you only get so many chances during a finite period of time in a world-class career. One Olympics has already come and gone for Culpepper. Ever hear the expression that you have to make hay while the sun shines? Culpepper better start baling some hay.

"Average_Joe" wrote:

"The man did a 2:09 in his very first marathon. When Salazar did that everyone thought he was God."

When Salazar did it, he won...by a lot...leading most of the way...in New York City...on live national TV...after proclaiming before the race that he would. That explains a bit of the recognition differential.

Zat0pek wrote:

As malmo and a few others can attest, you only get so many chances during a finite period of time in a world-class career. One Olympics has already come and gone for Culpepper. Ever hear the expression that you have to make hay while the sun shines? Culpepper better start baling some hay.

He's already bailed a lot more hay than you or any of the backseat drivers on this board, with the possible exception of malmo. And while nobody needs me to tell them how great malmo was, even he never broke 2:10.

No doubt Culpepper would be crushed that you are unsatisfied with his results. Fortunately he doesn't seem take career advice from message-boards.

Lopes won an Olympic Gold Medal and set a world record at 38. Culpepper's bailing just fine.

Average_Joe wrote:No doubt Culpepper would be crushed that you are unsatisfied with his results. Fortunately he doesn't seem take career advice from message-boards.

No, but he does make his living from the sport and its promoters. Without any prompting from me, a major agent in the sport told me at the USATF convention that Culpepper is considered such a joke internationally because he won't race anyone that it would be almost impossible to promote him. Other than to the few losers in this country that think its perfectly okay just to train and never test yourself in a race. There's a term for guys like that. They're called training rats.

What Little Culp doesn't get is that this is costing him money in the long run.

Zat0pek wrote:

What Little Culp doesn't get is that this is costing him money in the long run.

You think he's in this for the money? Be serious.

First off, I cannot imagine that the top guys on the world scene care too much about a 13:20, 27:30 runner. I'm sure they would consider that just middle of the pack, which it is. However, to say that he never tests himself in a race is ludicrous. The man has won your American championships in addition to having run a 2:09 marathon. What say you give him a bit more credit? You have as much access to his mind as he has to yours.

Average_Joe wrote:

You think he's in this for the money? Be serious.

You were the one that brought up him making a living in the sport.

And if he's not in the sport for the money, he's also clearly not in it to achieve all he can because he won't put himself in the position to achieve it. He's 30. He has set no American records, and has made exactly one Olympic team and didn't even compete then. This great long term plan we keep hearing about better kick in soon. Other guys at his level, like Virgin and Salazar, had racked up a much more impressive history by the time they were his age? Why? BECAUSE THEY WOULD RACE PEOPLE.

And as for why Salazar got more credit for his 2:09, let me add another couple of reasons in addition to those given. Salazar was only 22 when he ran that and I believe still in college; Little Culp was 30. Salazar teed it up against the worlds best while still in college. Also, 2:09 on New Yorks course is just a plain better performance than 2:09 on Chicago's course.

bridge and others:

where do you find these full results from all the prevous xc champs? i would like to take a look at them. on the ncaachampionships website it only lists previous winners and results from 1998-present. please send a link. thanks

Zat0pek wrote:

You were the one that brought up him making a living in the sport.

Uh no. I wasn't. I brought up no such thing. Where did you see me doing that?

I did mention that his life doesn't revolve around the sport, but that has nothing to do with money. Actually it turns out, that's almost a direct quote from the interview he gave to RW a while back.

And if he's not in the sport for the money, he's also clearly not in it to achieve all he can because he won't put himself in the position to achieve it.

Or maybe he just doesn't agree with what you think it takes to achieve it. Hey, go figure...

Everyone also tells him that he should have a coach, but he won't get one. He doesn't want one. And yet he's still the second fastest marathoner we've got.

He's 30. He has set no American records, and has made exactly one Olympic team and didn't even compete then.

As opposed to you who have set... well, how many American records was that? How many Olympic teams have you made? Are you another malmo that I just don't know about?

This great long term plan we keep hearing about better kick in soon. Other guys at his level, like Virgin and Salazar, had racked up a much more impressive history by the time they were his age? Why? BECAUSE THEY WOULD RACE PEOPLE

Interestingly Virgin and Salazar were also done by their 30s. Virgin's last PR came at what, age 25? Culpepper is getting faster right now.

And as for why Salazar got more credit for his 2:09, let me add another couple of reasons in addition to those given.

Whatever reasons, the basic physiological requirements to run a 2:09 haven't changed in 20 years. It's still just as hard now as it was then. People aren't born any more adapted to run now than they were then. And the way to train to run that fast hasn't changed much either, at least not if one takes the word of the old-timers as closely as you seem to.

It's no wonder the US has such a hard time succeeding in distance running. One of our fastest guys and he's called "the reason we suck at distance running". (and you chiming in with you Amens.

All these experts on what it takes to be world class. You couldn't carry Culpepper's jock. DougF was right.