Syracuse - From Nothing to National Champ - How a Cross Country Powerhouse Was Built From Scratch in 10 Years

malmo wrote:

Recruiting wrote:

Enjoyed the article and admire Syracuse's championship run, but the article failed to be critical in two areas.

Why should it be critical at all? Because you think so?

It should be honest. Like the "I was on the team" poster said, there are years that don't match the narrative being spelled out by the author. They have been coaches at Syracuse for 10 years, and to imply that every year was a perfectly executed progression towards a championship is dishonest. There is no discussion of what was going on with the team when they stagnated at 14th and 15th place for several years in a row.

At the least, the obstacles/struggles of a rising team, and their resolutions, are worth discussing. Moreover, if the article is "How a Cross Country Powerhouse Was Built From Scratch in 10 Years" There should be discussion of the first and middle phases.

As another example, the article mentions that they started looking at foreign athletes with Justyn Knight, Palamar, and Auoani. But never mention Canadian Jeff Scull, qualifier for a few Canadain National teams in XC.

Everything in the article is well written, detailed, and seemingly true. But there must be more to the story that is equally as important to the "How a ...powerhouse was built from scratch."

It doesn't need to be critical. It doesn't need to talk about the failures of HS stars like Steve Murdock. Every school has those kinds of guys. It doesn't need to call the coaches mediocre during those 14th/15th place years; that step towards the later success just took longer. Posters are getting distracted by the recruiting angle because there is no discussion in the article of the openness of the coaches to walk-ons, and non-studs that have played a key role in many years, the Phil Germano types that have been a key part each of the 10 years.

It doesn't have to be critical. But there does need to be more from the article for an honest discussion of their success. Maybe some things got left on the editing room floor, but there can be a lot to learn from the team if the article was interested in being thorough. Maybe Gault can comment on what was left out.

I was on the team in 2006 wrote:

[The class of 2008 that was heavily quoted in the article was already coming into a team with established performing runners. It makes me wonder why the author chose to start the emergence in 2008 quoting runners instead of 2006. My guess is because several of the '08 guys are still involved in the running community and easier contact while the '06 guys have faded into obscurity.

2009 was the true breakout year for Syracuse with the team winning big east and regionals and finished 14th at nationals and it wouldn't have been possible without the class of 2006 who at this time were seniors and 3 of the top 7 and usually 3 of the top 5.

-i was on the team

My point wasn't about the individuals quoted as much as it was the fact that the article pointed out that the 2015 title was the culmination of the building of a program. Without the people you mentioned, and those earlier teams, there is no '15 title.

I think everyone around SU knows that the importance of the group who dragged the Orange up from the bottom cannot be understated.

The inference I took from the article about the earlier years was it split between some who cared and others who partied too much and once the vast majority of kids actually bought into the program, it evolved.

This is exactly what happened.

Did Nick Ryan (from FM) graduate, or did he stop running? He's not on the roster.

Fox and Bell are great coaches for sure from taking nothing into something. They even have some of thier former athletes in the coaching realm. Should be interesting how they pan out

I was also surprised the article made no mention of Kyle Heath, who really was an example of Fox's coaching ability to help pull in those '08 and '09 recruits. It was Heath who ran at the '08 Olympic Trials in an SU jersey ~18 months before the XC team made it to the NCAA meet. Heath also kept training under Fox a short time after graduating and broke 4:00 in the mile, becoming Fox's first sub four athlete while coaching at Syracuse.

Totally get how they can't talk about everyone who contributed to Syracuse's resurgence and recent dominance, though - without Heath in '06-'09 - Fox is mostly a charismatic guy offering a ton of distance scholarship money, but with no SU example of his coaching abilities.

Ohhh, so you mean just the Syracuse *men's* team? Why are they not included in this article about Syracuse XC? If you are going to completely ignore the women, please mention in the title that the article is about Syracuse Men's team rather than making the men's team the default.

Now I am curious: When the AD decided to focus on cross country, did he just mean the men's team? Because the women are extremely good, too, even if they have not won a national championship.

A few thoughts from a runner from Coach Fox and Bell's early years at Cuse, in no particular order.

1. Overall, great piece. You could certainly make an argument that there were some names left out but that is always going to be the case. The guy writing the article doesn't know the whole story and I'm sure a lot of the previously mentioned names came up in conversation but got left out of the final article. Plus some of those guys may look like they contributed in the results but may not have contributed to building the culture that is there today. May have just been boozin' and eating feces.

2. We were a mess of a team when they arrived. I think we took 10th at Big East that year so to say he built the team from scratch is not inaccurate.

3. As an alumni who really appreciated the fact that the team was being built on only "home grown" talent, I don't at all mind them having Knight. Toronto is more local to Syracuse than Boston so it doesn't make a difference to me. Trying to do it with Americans is noble but having some sort of hard-line "America First" policy is ridiculous. I think most other alumni would agree.

4. Both have done it all with continued class and, as a previous poster said, have kept in great touch with the alumni, both from before and during their time. The Syracuse alumni presence at nationals and other meets is amazing and it is always nice to connect and talk with runners from different generations.

5. For those who say the snow is not that big of a deal, you probably have not spent a whole winter running in Syracuse. I love the snow and come from a snowy area but putting in miles and miles over the winter in Syracuse is a totally different ballgame. It really makes you tough, both physically and mentally, and that has been seen when SU has done well in rough conditions towards the end of the season.

6. For those of you who complain that we put all our scholarships towards distance and that is the only way we win- you're a moron. Scholarships are a big part, yes, but compare the HS times of these guys (sans Knight) vs any top 15-ish ranked team and you won't find much of a difference, definitely likely slower than the perennial top 5 teams. You're just sad your school doesn't do it.

7. Go Orange.

I was on the team as well. I really think the last part on your first point was something you don't share with random people on the internet. It's nobodys business and to discredit people like that is just uncalled for. Yes were there people that produce results but didn't fit the culture....ABSOLUTELY. But i feel for some to group everyone of that time due to the actions of a few just seems silly. Most of those people that didn't fit the culture quit anyway. There have been great alumni before the Graves, DuPont, Whelan, Medrano era.....All American or not those people have brought that TCB culture to thier everyday lives, not only success in the some that went pro but to higher education, careers outside of running, collegiate/high school coaching and so on.

Everything else is spot on though. Coach Fox and Coach Bell were great coaches and mentors and always keep in touch with past athletes that embraced the culture. They had thier ups and downs but 10 years ago alot of people told them winning a National title in Syracuse couldn't be done and they defied those odds. Was very fortunate to actually see them win it all in 2015 and it couldn't have happen to better people...athletes and coaches

TCB

How hard is it when you "recruit" and give a "scholarship" to runners like Knight? A key to Div 1 success is recruiting and scholarships.

Recruiting and Scholarships wrote:

How hard is it when you "recruit" and give a "scholarship" to runners like Knight? A key to Div 1 success is recruiting and scholarships.

You mean "runner" like Knight?

Look at their number two for their top years. Hehir, Beannie, are 9:00 and 9:07 HS guys. All Americans like Medrano, Dupont are 9:00-9:10 guys. Germano was like a 9:40 guy.

Chris has done a fine job. Ran against him and the athletes that he coached back in the early 90's on the east coast when everyone was chasing every dollar road race on the circuit. Personally not sure I liked him but being liked isn't a criteria for being a good coach. Congrats to him.

Knight, Palamar, Aouani. Also add in AD support.

First and foremost the Div 1 coaches look for the ready made solution to plug into the lineup. Only after they fail to recruit top talent will they attempt to develop the runners they have.

The "best" Div 1 track coaches have a pipeline of prospective talent - Jamaican sprinters, Kenyan mid-D, etc. They recruit them and provide scholarships and many still mess up the great talent they bring in this way.

Palamar ran well but did best in track- XC is not really his thing. I don't think he was ever top 7 in XC. Ilias is strong but came along after the title in 2015.

Recruiting and Scholarships wrote:

Knight, Palamar, Aouani. Also add in AD support.

Only Knight was part of the Championship team. In fact, it is likely that Kush and Germano were non-scholarship guys.

Definitely wasn't trying to offend anyone or call anyone and definitely wasn't trying to group everyone in with the actions of a few as I'd be discrediting my own self. Was just trying to say that some people may look like they contributed but weren't necessarily the best for the team culture. From what I know, these guys all live like pros now. There were some people on the team pre-Fox who lived that lifestyle but it was by no means the norm... Anyways, I just love the looks I get when I tell people I ran for Syracuse because they think I must have been awesome and there's no chance I'd even come close to making the team now. TCB

God bless Syracuse for discovering the obvious.... Today is Marathon Day in Boston (April 18,2022). I attended Boston College on a T&F Scholarship for distance running and Boston College could have succeeded in developing a nationally ranked Top 10 X-Country program.

Boston College should attract the best distance runners in the country all aspiring to one day compete in the Boston Marathon since "Heartbreak Hill" is part of the BC Campus.. The now removed 476 yard tartan track at Boston College was "home" to the "Greater Boston Track Club", Bill Rogers, Alberto Salazar, Bob Hodge, Dick Mahoney, Greg Meyer and dozens of distance runners associated with the greatness of the GBTC. Need I go on.... Boston College could be in the East what Hayward Field (Oregon) is in the West...but Boston College does not fund Men's X Country and Boston College doesn't even have a track anymore...Such short money to win a National Championship but Boston College overlooks the obvious. Congratulations to Syracuse and continued good luck forever.