Road Racing and Training Thread- Week Ending April 16, 2017

It's maybe more of a philosophical question than specific to this thread...Is there a difference between "running"" and "training". I think there is, but probably this thread isn't the place to dilute the thread's purpose with that conversation so I will disappear now.

Thinking Out Loud wrote:

It's maybe more of a philosophical question than specific to this thread...Is there a difference between "running"" and "training". I think there is, but probably this thread isn't the place to dilute the thread's purpose with that conversation so I will disappear now.

Fair enough...I do, though, see what I am doing now as "training," not simply "running," and I suspect that it may perhaps end up being better training than the more "fixed" training I had been doing.

All the best...

outsiderunner, where do you live? I'm somewhat dreading the summer here in Tucson, AZ. It's already getting hot and I'm guessing there will be a lot of trips up the mountain and running in the dark. I'm with you on having a dynamic training plan and the mental freedom it gives you. OTOH, sometimes I struggle to make up a workout early in the morning or late at night, so I find it helps to have both a written schedule and the freedom to change it on the fly.

hereford, I like your approach to Boston -- enjoy the experience rather than dread the race :-) The one time I did that race, I was hurting from mile 16 (undertrained) on and really denigrated the experience.

gordon, I'm not sure about the speed check workout. I would guess that you would get more feedback on your condition about running MP miles during a long run--something like a fast- finish long run (20 miles with miles 10-18 at MP). Some people (like me) are workout animals that can crank out intervals at relatively higher paces even though they don't have the endurance to run a little bit slower for marathon-type distances. Also, take my free advice with a grain of salt. Others on this board are much more seasoned and knowledgeable on this.

RRR, I ignore your sh*t all the time :-) Truthfully (and this might just be me -- some are very brief and perhaps prefer it that way), I enjoy reading the more heartfelt posts. It's hard to get to know people like this, anonymously over this forum with poor threading and thread recall, but as I've gotten to know people through this (it's slow--I still don't know what part of the country you live in, RRR, and I've friended some people on strava and forgotten their usernames here) I become invested in their training and outcomes. At the same time, we're all runners and we all have some very fundamental things in common, and some very fundamental things different, so I enjoy reading new and old users' posts as well.

As far as being self-centered. I'm probably not the only one around here that thinks the whole essence of training and racing is self-centered by nature. I like to provide feedback where I can, sometimes offering my own ignorant feedback on others' runs, but I covet the feedback on my own training even more.

r2d -- You're doing zane grey 50, right? Rock on! Love the aggressive strategy. I'm coaching youth soccer that day or I'd be there cheering or pacing. Maybe next year!

Again, all in Boston. Great job! Everybody did hella better than my only Boston so many years ago. Wish I'd had a community like this then :-)

Outside Runner shows up and the trolls magically appear at the same time- shocker!

Can you have your conversations with yourself (using different usernames of course) on another thread?

team1- I agree.. I was just trying to say that I hope there does not become a lot of bickering back and forth.

Thinking about an 50k or something after this 128 mile 4 person relay, if it goes well. Only other race planned is a dang 2 mile in June to kick of the 2017-18 race series they have here.

oh yea, note to future self, and others running Boston in the future: go for the gatorade/water cups they hand out on the left hand side of the road. Most people seem to head straight for the first ones on the right side and it gets crazy, and the ones on the left afterwards were way easier to get to, that's what it seemed like to me at least

Now for the selfish questions... I've been pretty much off due to this Achilles injury for about 3 weeks. Almost cold turkey. I got back to limited running last week and figured out that the injury is on the mend and I can train up to the race and run any pace without discomfort. Now the question is: what have I lost? What fitness issues might I have and how should I mitigate those?

Also, not having run a half marathon in some time, what should the effort feel like? I know with a marathon you want things to feel too easy at the beginning. Is that how I should feel at the start of a half?

Excellent post, team 1, and I agree with you.

I feel for you--AZ is super hot. I live in VA...not as hot, but quite humid. Last summer, I killed myslef, trying to get in miles and workouts, and I just do not think it was worth it. So, this year I am trying something different...get in my higher mileage before the heat hits and bring it back once it starts to diminish. Again, I will train by feel, and see where it takes me. Right now (in just a few weeks time), it has already taken me to nearly the highest mileage I have ever run. I want to keep feeling good. The way I see it: the better I feel, the more I can run. Can't argue with that. At least I can't.

All the best to you...

Team1- Were you doing any cross training? I doubt you lost much fitness, if so you'll gain it back fast. Anything less than a month sometimes does a body good to rebuild and soak up months of hard training and racing.

How is your injury doing now? I have friends that have had great success with graston? Anyone have any thoughts on it? I personally have not used it, but I am curious.

team1 wrote:r2d -- You're doing zane grey 50, right? Rock on! Love the aggressive strategy. I'm coaching youth soccer that day or I'd be there cheering or pacing. Maybe next year!

No. I'm doing a little 50K in New Mexico that climbs from Alamogordo to the National Solar Observatory, then goes to Cloudcroft. I'm on the Zane Grey waitlist but don't expect a call.

I plan on hitting ZG or the Mogollon Monster next year.

Ultra guys- when it comes to 50k to 50 miler is total weekly mileage more important that say really long runs on the weekend? Say I run 100-110 mpw w multiple 16 milers is that suffice for a 50 miler? and that includes one double like 16-12 with 4-5 hours rest.

I did Grastin for my plantar fasciitis. My PT and podiatrist both say it's very effective, but it didn't work for me because there was just too much scar tissue and it was too gnarly and old. This the surgery back in May.

I wouldn't hesitate to do it to treat other things though - including an Achilles (although that hurts like hell - my PT also did Grastin on my Achilles tendonosis; not sure if it worked because I ended up taking off four months after surgery, so time could've healed my tendon as much as Grastin)

runn3rgirl - Yeah, I'm a lazy butt and didn't really do anything for cross-training while I was off. I did get a lot of rest, though.

RRR - I have two books--one by Hal Koerner and another (Relentless Forward Progress) by Bryon Powell. Worth a read, although it's not going to be revolutionary to you. Ultimately, there's not a ton about training (in comparison to Jack Daniels, etc.). Both books have plans with vague instructions about speed work, but Hal points out, "If you need to tradeoff quality over quantity, err on the side of quantity." -- The joints and muscles need to get used to going when you are very, very tired, so there's a lot more "time in your feet" time of runs. An interesting difference between marathon and ultra training is that as the distances go up, the training distances don't go up that much. For example, a lot of people training for 50s and longer like to do "back-to-backs" -- running two long runs in a row, like 25 on Saturday and 25 on Sunday. The super long runs aren't all that valuable since the drawbacks and recover required after, say, a 50-miler, may outweigh the training benefit. That said, most 100-mile training programs seem to have a 50-miler or 100k race as part of the training. To finish up my long-winded non-answer with an answer: Total weekly mileage doesn't necessarily need to be longer and usually isn't. You can follow Tim Tollefson, Hayden Hawks, Jim Walmsley on strava and compare to what the pro marathon guys might be doing. Long runs are still important and provide important training benefits as well as stress the body in ways similar to what your body will experience during the race. run2death has much more experience with ultra training and racing than I do...

r2d - good luck! when is the race?

ha, I mentioned Hayden Hawks, Tim Tollefson, and Jim Walmsley. Those guys can RUN! So their training is going to be a bit different. They really are doing a lot of quality. They all come from track backgrounds. Tim Tollefson still likes to drop down and run 5Ks and had a little cross country season after UTMB.

Someone who might be better example of our equivalent (but much better) is Alex Nichols, the winner of Run Rabbit Run (100 mile race). He was running up Pikes Peak from Colorado Springs every day in his training before that 100-miler. I don't recall seeing a lot of speedwork. Lots of long, sustained efforts and tons of climbing...

Team1 - thanks. May do something this summer ultra wise. I did 90 last week and was fairly easy and this week I did sun 16-12 mon 11 today 4am 11pm .. and I am not tired really. Feet stiff a bit ,But speed work and tempos wear me down.

Longer stuff may end up being my cup of tea

I will echo what Slo said, the Philadelphia course is fair, potential speed bumps are the hill at mile 7-8, slightly rolling hills on the out to/back from Manyunk, and a wildcard with the weather. It was perfect weather for five years running, but the last two had pretty rough winds in the 30 mph range. People like me in the 3:10 pack were getting pummeled along Kelly Drive. But, the prior five years were great.

Two years ago you could still register at the expo. The number of finishers has actually declined slightly over the years so grabbing a last minute bib shouldn't be a problem. Nor should grabbing a cheesesteak and some cannoli after the race.

Oh boy, the forecast for Sunday is 97 F. Fun times will be had by all. Guess that means I'm carrying water.

Relax - it's a dry heat!

Dump water.. to quote running from the buffaloes .. sometimes water is better on you than in you! On my longer runs recently I been stopping at the creek to splash around and soak my hat. And I carry around a plastic water bottle on every run.