sub 1:40 800m

I say you give Clement and Kipketer one year with Coach Cook (fomer Mason coach) and at least one of them will run sub 1:40.

i will not count out Kipketer or ne one else running fast right now. but saying that a 400m guy can move up to the 800 is tough to call. you have to learn how to run the 800, you jus dont step out there and run a 1:42 with no expeirence or ne thing. you learn how to run the 800, no matter how fast the runner may be.

Pre could've done it!!!!

Just one year?

By all rights it should have been Lagat or El G or Morceli, if anyone was going to be able to do it without new, revolutionary drugs. The fastest Coe ever ran was 3:29.77 and he was under 3:30 just once, but he ran 1:41-42 a couple times. Cram went 3:29.67, under 3:30 just once, and 1:42.88.

So these guys ran 3:26-28 several times each. That should translate to 1.5 to 2.0 seconds faster in the 800 (.53 of a 1500) for some people (not all!).

So if this was going to be possible, it would have been done by someone like that who was in top form for 800-1500.

Many people will say that these three never trained for the 800 and that is why they rarely ran under 1:45, but 3:26.00 is 54.93 a lap and El G routinely ran ~1:50 for the first 800 of his 1500's so there is no way it couldn't have crossed his mind that 1:42 should be within his grasp. Also, there are so many examples of other milers (3:30-3:35m) who ran 1:44 (or faster) without the 800 being their specialty that the 3:26-28 runners should be able run at least 1:42 no problem.

I think this lends more to the fact that so few runners on the highest levels run events outside of their specialty.

Coe ran 400m and 3k in the offseason/early season to better prepare to race 800 and 1500m. Of course, Wilson K. was almost all 800m and 1km racing and I wonder if he couldn't have gone faster had he done some more work above/below 800m.

In '97 at Zurich, Kipketer ran 1:41.24 with a 1st lap of 48.3 sec. He was at 1:14 low at the 600m mark, and slowed in the last 200m (alone the last 100m), which usually happens at world record pace. However, his splits were 48.3/52.9, so he definately tied up to the extent that he could have run the race more efficiently. Obviously, the 1st lap will be faster than the 2nd in a fast 800, but the splits should be somewhat closer together than what Kipketer ran. In Coe's 2 world records, he went 50.6/52.7 (1:42.33) and 49.7/51.0 (1:41.73). Had Kipketer gone out at, say 49.0 instead of 48.3, perhaps he wouldn't have tied up so badly and might have finished sub 52 on the 2nd lap. I think the time could have been in the 1:40.5-1:41.0 range with better pacing.

So, realistically, all we need is someone marginally better than Kipketer, ideally someone with better 1500m endurance who is just as fast. And that person needs to run the most efficient pace under ideal conditions (rabit, competition, weather)

Californian wrote:

So, realistically, all we need is someone marginally better than Kipketer, ideally someone with better 1500m endurance who is just as fast. And that person needs to run the most efficient pace under ideal conditions (rabit, competition, weather)

Oh yeah no problem

Your splits for Coe don't add up. 50.6+52.7=1:43.3 and 49.7+51.0=1:40.7 Maybe you got two of them switched around.

I hear what you are saying, but.....

Borzakovsky and Kipketer, the fastest and one of the fastest 800 runners of all time (and the 2nd guy coming from a 400 background) are QUITE skinny in the upper body. Same with Coe. You don't need a strong upper body to be great at the 8 (that's my Johnny Cochran line for you. :-) )

As far as El G, yes, he is pretty emaciated. But to be honest, I do not think he could have gone faster than 1:42-point maybe. Look at how great he is at 5k! And he is even talking 10k! I think he is an AEROBIC machine, with power for sure, but 1:40 speed/anerobic ability? I doubt it. I think he obviously has 12:40 ability at 5k......so people REALLY think he could have been a 1:40 /12:40 guy?? Hard to imagine THAT range, no matter how good he is. And everyone is talking about his last 800 in the Olympics as proof of 800 WR potential. Didn't Lagat and Silva run about the same time for their last 800's?? So are they 1:40 guys too? No.

The fact that Coe "only" ran 3:29 compared to El G's 3:26 shows El G's superior aerobic ability/endurance, NOT necessarily that El G could have matched Coe at 800.

Sorry, I meant 50.6/51.7=1:42.33 and 49.7/52.0=1:41.73

So the differentials in lap times were 1.1 sec in his 1st wr and 2.3 sec in his 2nd wr. I have no idea what the most efficient differential is, and it probably varies from runner to runner, but I would think its a little better to have your lap times 2 seconds apart instead of more than 4.5 seconds apart

... wrote:

I say you give Clement and Kipketer one year with Coach Cook (fomer Mason coach) and at least one of them will run sub 1:40.

Can you describe what about Cook's program you feel would develop a 1:40 800 runner better than Kipketer's coach (who brought him 3 1:41's)?

I agree with you on the range argument. El G had already run 12:50, and like you said might have 12:40 abilities. That would make it difficult to be fast enough to break 1:40. In the 80s, Said Aouita had pretty incredible range, similar to El Gerroudj only not as fast, ranking #1 in the world at 10k in '86 and winning a bronze in the 800m in the '88 olympics when injured. His best 800m was 1:43.86 and he was training for the 800m/1500m double so he probably got very close to maxing out his 800m abilities. A guy like El Gerroudj with the same sort of range would be hard pressed to have the kind of speed to run 4 sec faster at 800m.

If you took a ratio of their 1500m and 5000m times to account for El Gerroudj being better, it would make sense that he could have run somewhere in the 1:42 range if he specialized in the event for a year when his speed was at its peak. But sub a 1:40 is too far out there.

Aouita: 1:43.86/3:29.45/12:58.39

El Gerroudj: ? /3:26.00/12:50.

1st 400- 48.5% of total race time

2nd 400- 51.5% of total race time

Ex: 1:42.00 done with splits of 49.47/52.53.

Are you saying that is the most efficient way to run an 800m? Then for a sub 1:40, it would be roughly 48.5/51.4. So Kipketer ran the kind of 1st lap (48.3) you would need to get under 1:40 but it took too much out of him on the 2nd lap.

I think Borza has as good a chance as anyone to test 1:40 under perfect conditions: he's got the right build (strength without bulk and a long stride) good pace judgement (very even splits) and a one-race mentality (which, as Trackhead rightly states, is the norm these days).

That said, I'm not one to believe that the next 800m world record holder will come from a distance background - while I accept that it's a *more* aerobic event than the 400m, I don't consider it an aerboic event in and of itself. Nor is it a pure sprint. It's unique.

Distance-orientated athletes simply won't possess the raw speed needed to open a sub 50 second first 400m. Pure sprinters won't have the basic strenght to follow up a sub 50 opener with a sub 50 closer.

This explains why the barrier is set to last for so long - the sprints and the distance events attract a host of athletes with the ability to switch in and out of specialities. (MJ in the 200/400, Geb in the 5/10)

The 800m requires isolation, which attracts few athletes and thus minimizes the chances for record breaking.

1:40 will be broken eventually - all barriers are - but it might not be when and where we expect it.

Martin

everyone on here talks about the 800 as if it is a new event that no one trains for, aka : whoever runs it either comes fro ma distance or sprint background. well, just to throw something else into the mix, it is possible for people to be 800 metre runners.

er ... isn't that what I was just saying?

Martin

Martin - x wrote:

1:40 will be broken eventually - all barriers are - but it might not be when and where we expect it.

Martin

See this is were i disagree ..

All barriers are not to be broken.

Who will break 40s in the 400m, no human

Who will break 2:00hr in the marathon, no human

Who will break 1:40 in the 800m, i really don't think it is possible, and untill i see someone consistantly hiting 1:40.5 i dont think ill change my mind.