Interesting scenario: Coach fired, and more trouble to come

Lenny Leonard wrote:

Jerry Schumacher is one of the 3 best coaches in America and he doesn't coach his son, who is one of the top 20 high school runners in America. I'm sure he guides most of his offseason training and offers advice when it's called for.

You're worrying too much.

My guess is... Schumacher provides advice.

Not knowing your situation, I would say that if you are at the upper end of high school runners (current age in your state) then other posters have it right. Do your critical workouts in the AM with your Dad, float the afternoon team runs, do your long run with the team. Over time, the coach will want/need your low stick for his team. Tough to manage your rest and school studies under this scenario but sounds like your Dad has been doing a great job coaching you. There are far too many bad coaches in HS track and cross country. The one's that aren't flexible with their athletes often fall into that category.

Your desire has nothing to do with entitlement as some have posted. It has everything to do with what has been working well for you and your future.

If you aren't on a trajectory of being "upper end of high school runners in your state" than you may want to reassess things.

Good thing this is all just a scenario and not an actual situation. Nothing to worry about because it's not real! I agree with whomever suggested worrying more about your academics.

I've read all of the posts. I have a couple of observations (as the father of a D1 walk on who had a terrible track coach).

First, HS coaching is usually negligent to terrible. But there are a lot of HS and College coaches on LRC that take offense to that. They'll always tell you to just do what the coaches say. That can be bad advice if your coach sux.

Second, we're missing a piece of info. Is the new coach like the old coach and is running his kids too little? If so, there's an easy solve for that. Run in the am 2X a week, do his workouts during the week, supplement them as necessary (e.g., pickup the tempo 2X a week, do striders after the workout, extend the run to accomplish your mileage goals, etc.) during the week and do a long run on the weekend. Your private coach can guide you.

If the new coach subscribes to the 10x4x400 school of distance training, then it's a different issue. Then, you may need to part ways.

In general, its better to train with the team and supplement. It's easier to train that way and you'll be more attractive to college coaches. Try to make that work. I don't think you need a huge sit down with the coach to make it work.

Now, if you were running low 15s, sub 4:10 and sub 9, I'd be giving you different advice. But as a 16 flat guy (similar to my son), you have potential to run at the next level, but you're a D1 walk on or a D3 runner, so you don't need to make this into a life or death issue.

Good luck

What biased advice. I ran 9:35 and was a full-scholarship DI runner. Do you realize there are close to 300 NCAA Division I programs, many which offer scholarships and many which would love to have a sub-9:30 guy?

My brother ran 4:28/9:54 and got a full scholarship at a DI powerhouse in the ACC. They went to Nationals in XC his final two years.

Kid, never let anyone tell you what is DI or not DI material. The best coaches recruit on talent and potential, and not on times alone. The run world is full of kids that sucked in high school that went on to be great DI runners and get full rides.

FasttimesatHS wrote:

I would not like abuse wrote:

Probably the first thing to do is to talk with the coach and see if he's supporting of your progress and you being in control of your destiny. If he is then maybe it will work with him.

My experience is that the best coaches are friendly and accepting of input from others, and terrible coaches are not.

Well, new coach came to my house and had some words with my dad, who lost it and punched him in the jaw. When new coach got up he said X, don't worry about coming to practice tomorrow.

Sadly the situation has regressed even further now, even though the "new coach got up he said X, don't worry about coming to practice tomorrow" I did go and also ended up punching him in the jaw. Me and Dad are now awaiting a date for our Court appearance on aggravated assault charges and heavy Civil Court injury compensation costs to the new coach:(:(:(:(:(

GR wrote:

What biased advice. I ran 9:35 and was a full-scholarship DI runner. Do you realize there are close to 300 NCAA Division I programs, many which offer scholarships and many which would love to have a sub-9:30 guy?

My brother ran 4:28/9:54 and got a full scholarship at a DI powerhouse in the ACC. They went to Nationals in XC his final two years.

Kid, never let anyone tell you what is DI or not DI material. The best coaches recruit on talent and potential, and not on times alone. The run world is full of kids that sucked in high school that went on to be great DI runners and get full rides.

"Full" scholarship? Really? D1 only allows 12.6 scholarships.

Now, he might have gotten an athletic grant-in-aid plus other grants/scholarships that covered the cost, but I find it unlikely the runner got a 1/12th of the entire allotment.

Full scholarship. 100% paid. Just because it is not reality to you, does not mean it is reality.

I am a former D1 coach at a non powerhouse program and provided 100% scholarship to an 8:59 3000m high school runner (male) as well. Don't even ask about Women, because it will blow your mind.

Good thing the Ingebrigtsens (3:31/3:32/3:42 at 15) haven't taken your advice.

silly sally sullies sam wrote:

No parent should ever coach their kid - only egocentric parents would even want to do that to their kid. Train with the team and the "real" coach or quit running - those should be your only options. Too many entitled kids who think they deserve different treatment from everybody else - if the coach is good enough for everybody else on the team, they are good enough for you.

GR wrote:

What biased advice. I ran 9:35 and was a full-scholarship DI runner. Do you realize there are close to 300 NCAA Division I programs, many which offer scholarships and many which would love to have a sub-9:30 guy?

My brother ran 4:28/9:54 and got a full scholarship at a DI powerhouse in the ACC. They went to Nationals in XC his final two years.

Kid, never let anyone tell you what is DI or not DI material. The best coaches recruit on talent and potential, and not on times alone. The run world is full of kids that sucked in high school that went on to be great DI runners and get full rides.

So exciting to hear that. I really believe I can run 9:30 so who knows. Ceilings the limit that's all I know. I never count myself out, especially this year. I'm new to the sport and to the miles, but I'm all in.

Thanks everyone for the good advice.

Today we found out from AD, that coach is on "paid leave" which I take as he's being investigated.

New coach told us he doesn't have much plans to change anything, and does't know how long he'll be coaching.

Hopefully when he says that, he doesn't have plans to change what I'm doing? Hopefully. Will keep everyone updated.

Dual meet tomorrow so I don't have to worry about anything and just plan to tempo it.

This is exactly the problem.

Princesses like you not even trying in race situations.

FasttimesasHS wrote:

Dual meet tomorrow so I don't have to worry about anything and just plan to tempo it.

Keep us posted how you're doing.

GR wrote:

Just because it is not reality to you, does not mean it is reality.

Good news / wrote:

FasttimesasHS wrote:

Dual meet tomorrow so I don't have to worry about anything and just plan to tempo it.

Keep us posted how you're doing.

Thanks, I'm doing some late night study on redtube.com so not expecting any thing too flash in the meet.

Been reading this thread with some interest for the past several days, and as a coach, then coach-dad have lived a similar scenario. A scenario that lasted nearly a decade.

Coach A had some success but had some controversial approaches, and one athlete was not responding to the training so the family contacted me and I started working with the athlete. Coach A made some bad decisions (not involving any athletes) and got fired. Coach B stepped in on an interim basis and I continued advising the athlete. Coach B was not nearly as qualified. They opened the position and I applied but they gave it to coach B because coach B was better connected--and they already had their mind made up before I even walked into the interview. I continued coaching the athlete on the side, and the coach more or less accepted the workouts because the athlete was the best on the team and a D1 prospect, eventually getting a scholarship at a good program.

Coach B continued with mediocre results, low mileage program and did not believe in base work and never understood the concept of aerobic development. Meanwhile I started working with some younger kids, who swept in an took over the varsity. Coach B was kind of incredulous but we worked together for awhile. But it was a big compromise. The kids did the best when they were allowed to run consistently on their own--with out coach B's meddling--over the summer. But to be PC and get along, I needed to work with Coach B. The kids did have some success all peaked their junior and sophomore years because their is no progression in their training. All runners, regardless of age or ability, are treated about the same in their workouts. Lowest common denominator, low mileage through high school, but 2 hour practices (social time). It was frustrating to watch, but Coach B hardly ever listened. Didn't want to hear it.

Doing a few AM workouts on your own, and if the coach prescribes crummy workouts, then a few well placed alternatives (training on your own) might work. Otherwise, best of luck!

Good news / wrote:

FasttimesasHS wrote:

Dual meet tomorrow so I don't have to worry about anything and just plan to tempo it.

Keep us posted how you're doing.

Bad news.

I bombed.

He sacked me from the team.