Jack Daniels 2Q'ing Again - Long Run Advice

Agreed - we are talking about degrees of precision that really probably are not relevant to most people. Whichever way you do it - one way you are going to get maybe 96% of the potential benefit of the workout, and the other way maybe 98%. (I refuse to use 100% - there is always room for improvement!)

Definitely not arguing.

Finding this thread a little late, but it's super relevant to me -- looking for thoughts on my own case.

I'm also running Philly in a few weeks and following Jack Daniels (although, I'm using an older version, the one with Bob Kennedy on cover, training plan A).

I just did my 15-mile MP run on Saturday, in Central Park of NYC. The thing really, really hurt by the last few miles (granted, CP is a hilly beast) and I wound up averaging about 6:25/mile, which is about 5 seconds per mile SLOWER than I hope to run the actual race.

While this is a little disconcerting (like, how can I envision doing 26.2 miles faster than I could muster 15 miles), I think the 15 miles at MP by yourself, and not tapered, is deceptively HARD.

Does anyone else have experience with that? Did you find that on race day you were able to maintain (or even go faster than) your MP workout pace for much longer?

Thanks in advance for any wisdom!

I used the same plan (although from the 2nd edition - you have the first (which my dog literally ate)) for my two marathons.

Two marathons means 6 long mp runs total per his plan. Of the 6, I ran two in half-marathon race settings. By the end, both felt closer to 1/2 marathon race effort than marathon pace, and in one of those two, I ran much slower than I wanted. Of the other 4, I only really nailed 1 of the 4. In each case, I had to question whether I was going to be able to maintain that pace for twice as long on rest day.

Come race day however, I was able to cruise through at mp to the 20 mile mark feeling pretty comfortable. Now the outcome for the last 10k wasn't perfect for me either race, but that wasn't necessarily because the pace itself was too fast. I mean, it is just the nature of the marathon that the last 10k is going to be where things happen. My first marathon (NYC in 2014), I felt great up to maybe 21, tried to drop a group I as with, promptly fought heavy winds on my own, and bonked badly. I got better weather in my 2nd marathon (Chicago 2015) and learned to better manage my nutrition and never bonked, but did cramp up from some slightly warm temps resulting in me stopping 5 or so times the last 10k). I still managed okay splits given the circumstances (1:15/1:20 top 10 masters in NYC and 1:14/1:16 top masters in Chicago), and I honestly don't believe my struggles over the last 10k had anything to do with my picking the wrong race pace. That pace was supported by other shorter races and by all of the vo2max workouts from weeks 18 out through 13 out, and by all of my tempo workouts over the course of the training cycle. I honestly think the struggles were just the result of the marathon being a finicky bitch.

The magic of race day... There's no way I could run 15 miles at MP during training and not feel trashed. Once you're racing the magic happens

Super helpful, Smoove and DougC -- thanks guys! Will let ya know how it goes in a few weeks

I think the MP thing varies quite a bit individually. I would never in a million years expect to run 26 miles faster than I could run 15 in training, especially if that 15 was considerably harder than expected.

Then again, I wouldn't base that judgement on a single run either. Sometimes you have an off day.

I'm also not a big fan of forcing yourself to run a certain pace either, though. Try finding the effort level that lets you cruise for a good long time without putting yourself over the line, and then see what pace that is. That's your marathon pace.

Smoove wrote:

I haven't read the full thread carefully, but the rest between cruise intervals (intervals at tempo pace) would typically be done standing around - no jogging.

The idea behind this is that the goal of the workout is to cause your body to adapt to lactic acid buildup. When you do a straight tempo run for 20 continuous minutes at T pace, the lactic acid builds up slowly - but continuously - over the 20 minute period.

This is a really interesting thought, Smoove, and it makes sense. When I was figuring out what I was supposed to do for each of the workouts, I noticed that some of the workouts had flat out rests and some had jogs. It struck me as funny because he had a workout on one week where there was a jogging recovery and then a week or two later it was the same workout with straight rests. "Why is he having me do the same workout again but with more rest?", I wondered.

I thought the old coot had lost his marbles or something, but then I figured that he was way too meticulous for it to be a mistake or oversight. So I took the rests and massaged my legs while I waited for the time to pass. Now that I know the purpose of the rests, I wonder if those massages were counterproductive!

Thanks for the insight!

Always happy to share my thoughts. As an early 90s D-III guy in upstate NY, I am an unabashed Daniels supporter.

I do all my running in Central Park, so I can relate! That'll be two of us, plus many other NYers I'm sure in Philly. I do my MP miles on the bridle path and the reservoir to avoid the hills. When I ran NYC, anecdotally, I was training on the hills more, and ran two 16 milers at MP (at the time, 7:30) and ran the same exact pace for the marathon (7:31 to be fair). But these were tough runs, and it felt like racing, so I wouldn't worry too much if I were you.

As others say the taper makes a difference, your legs "freshness" as well, plus adrenaline, maybe nutrition, rest, crowds etc.

This time, I am on the other side of the fence: I ran my 10E + 10M as described above, and felt like the 10 miles @ 6:50 didn't feel too hard, but that's only 10, not 16, and now I have no idea of where I am at, i.e. whether I have a shot (and risk blowing up?) at 2:59 or better, or if I should stick to sub 3:05 goal (7:00-7:03).

I'm going to take the better advice I think which is to run by effort, or perhaps heart rate. The key about the marathon is to avoid burning sugar too early and going over your LT. The easier/smoother you are, the more efficient (energy wise) you become and longer you can go.

Best of luck to you! 6:20 for the full marathon is an amazing goal I can't even dream of. If this makes you feel better by the way, when I ran 1:23:59 for the half (6:25 pace), my last T pace workout was the Wednesday prior (4 days before race) and I couldn't hit 6:25 on my first rep...I raced all out and managed 6:28 for ONE mile. 4 days later I put 13.1 of them. Go figure.

Don't drive yourself nuts and keep up the good work.

Quick update here. Final 3 weeks of training 65, 60, 60 and planning 2 for taper.

21 days out ran 20 (10E, 10M @ 6:50 --- HR 162-163 for the M-miles)

18 days out ran 3 x 1 mi w/ 1' rest (6:12, 6:09, 6:04) w/ 1' rest

14 days out ran 15 (10E, 5M @ 6:45 --- HR 158 or so for the M-miles)

11 days out ran 3 x 1 mi w/ 1' rest (6:11, 5:59, 5:59)

Planning 10 (w/ 5M) 7 days out, and 3 x 1k tempo 4 days out.

All other days very easy.

I'm encouraged by relatively low HR on the last 15 miler, with marathon-pace miles in the high 150s (or low 160s) and today's tempo intervals were quite fast (almost never a sub 6' mile before...HR were 160, 166, 168 for the reps at 6:11, 5:59, 5:59 with a max HR 173 during the run.

I don't know yet if I have what it takes to get sub 3, but I plan on running by HR and start the race in the low 150s. I can't be above 160 too early on or I'll cook. Any advice from anyone? It's literally impossible to know if/when in sub 3 shape! Nerve wrecking.

ery low 160s.

7:30, you definitely have a shot at sub 3. The paces you've been running in your workouts and your weekly mileage support that possibility, and that 20 miler was textbook perfect.

Heart rate is a very individual thing, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I don't know what your max heart rate is and, to be honest, I'm not sure what mine is. I'm also 44 years old, which can mean my max heart rate is lower than it once was. My last marathon, I averaged 152 for the first 13 miles. Right around the half, my heart rate started steadily increasing. The second 13 averaged 164, with the last 2 miles averaging 172 bpm. Still, I don't feel like it was the heart that was giving me the most pain at the end -- it was the burning legs.

Yes, it's the "not knowing" that's tough. I really think you should try for it. You are so close that even if you miss the mark you will not completely fall apart. What's the worst case? Maybe you fade 3 minutes in the second half.

Congratulations on making it to the taper phase! Get those legs fresh and ready!!

I'm 34 w/ max HR ~ 188 and LTHR ~ 168 so I think the 150s is a good place to start. It's clear that you will experience heart rate "drift" during a run as fatigue sets in.

I'll use it as barometer essentially so I don't run myself into the ground too quick, i.e. no faster than 6:45s early on. I will give sub 3 a shot.

The taper phase is definitely tough! Only 4.5 today, 5.5 tomorrow, 10 on Sunday...and next week almost nothing. The 3 x 1 mile workout yesterday almost freaked me out (in a positive way). I have done ZERO speedwork but I think the effect on training are starting to be felt.

My easy day pace is still a 9:00 crawl, but whatever. The last few workouts have me encouraged. And yes, the marathon is a crap shoot, so we will see, hope for the best and try to run smart!

I am working on nutrition now. I always run on empty stomach, and been practicing using the gels they give on race day on a couple of my runs to get my stomach used to. Not sure how many gels I'll have, they're 110 calories each. I'm thinking 2 minimum, 5 maximum. No breakfast other than water/gatorade, since I normally never eat breakfast. Can't wait..

Oh and thanks so much for the kind works Toadlips! Hope you have been recovering well, and congratulations again on your sub 3. Keep us in the loop with your progress and (coming soon) 10k!

I haven't forgotten about your Marathon quest, 7:30, and I am definitely rooting for you!

It sounds like you've got a good plan worked out, and I think you've done enough preparation to meet your goals!

Personally, I took a gu before the race and then one every 1/2 hour (6 total). I really don't know how much they actually help, but I have a cast iron stomach so there's no reason not to try them.

As for the Turkey Trot 10k, I'm working at it. I've been a little more relaxed with the training mileage, but I'm getting 3 semi-quality workouts in per week. Worst case, I'll still end up with a nice turkey dinner.

Try to relax until the 20th. I'm not going to prepare a final statement of wisdom and encouragement until the 19th because I don't want to get you all fired up 4 days before your race. Now is the time to get into your mental zone!!

Here it is, 7:30! The moment you've been waiting for: Marathon Eve.

Let's make no mistake. You are in sub-3 shape right now. How far under? I don't know, but you're definitely there. It is the wind that is the unknown at this point, not your fitness.

Running in the wind is a little like running in the hills, and, since you're running what is an irregularly shaped loop, you will get a reasonable portion of it back. If you're really lucky, the wind could actually help you or negate itself by picking up for you when it's at your back.

Your plan to go out in 1:29 for the half is a gutsy one, and you have my full support on that. If you find that the wind is relentless and unforgiving and you are struggling a little, adjusting to 1:31-1:32 won't put you out of range for one tasty, wind-swept sub-3.

DON'T be discouraged if you need to take additional time to work your way through the wind on that first half. It's better to conserve your energy if you need to. Remember, if that 25MPH wind is at your back on the home stretch, as the weather forecast predicts, then you will literally be flying home.

And now, without further adieu, I will give you my greatest piece of wisdom. The marathon is tough and grueling, and it will conquer your mind well before it conquers your legs -- IF you let it. After that first half, you will begin to see people bail out of the race, drop off their pace, or even walk. Your mind will tell you that you would like to join them. It would be so easy to give your legs a break. Don't do it!

When the going gets tough, focus on pushing your feet into the ground to propel yourself forward. It takes a lot more focus near the end of the race, and feels substantially more painful, but your legs will have a lot more left in them than they will admit openly to.

When you reach the point where the going gets really, really tough, near the last several miles of the race, then take a "snapshot" of the mental and physical anguish that you are experiencing at that moment. Tell yourself "it does not have to get any more painful than this, but I will not let it get any LESS painful than this."

With that in mind, you may slow down to some degree or you may not. You may even speed up. The point is that you have made a commitment to maintain that level of discomfort till the bitter end. You know you can handle that level of discomfort because you already ARE handling that level of discomfort. THAT is the key to final stages of the marathon.

You've done the work, 7:30, and now is the time to reap the rewards of everything that you have put into this endeavor. Keep yourself loose and relaxed and shake those arms out every mile or so. Smile for the camera and high-five a fan or two! This is the culmination of months of effort, so allow yourself to enjoy the experience. There will be pain, for certain, but there will also be joy and the relief of knowing that you have done your best.

Good luck to you tomorrow, 7:30! I hope that we can change your handle tomorrow, though. 6:50 sounds right to me. :)

Sincerely,

Toadlips

PS - From the moment you get up, sit on the toilet. Every time you pass a porta-potty, sit on the toilet. Get everything out before that gun goes off!! :)

Wow --- thanks so very much Toadlips!

That's really nice of you, and immensely appreciated. Not many LR threads end up with that much support.

For the wind, I'll just have to be smart and run in pack when facing headwinds, and try to take advantage of tailwind when and if any!

The marathon is tough, grueling, but getting to the start is even harder as many of us know --- and I'm happy to be there. The taper feels weird, legs just want to go and run as fast as possible (a good sign!). Ran a tiny 3 x 800 @ T pace workout w/ 2 min rest and the pace was quite quick (6:12, 5:53, 5:51).

I'm about to go do my last run (20 min shakeout) now and get up the Rocky steps for inspiration, haha. My first time here in Philadelphia.

I agree on the toilet thing, that's actually what's been bothering me a bit recently as I've felt the urge to go (but refrained) on long runs. We will see.

Will re-read your post for sure in the morning (planning to get up 3-4 hours before the gun), and yes I will go for sub 3. My wife really really wants me to be "done" with that goal haha.

Now my PR is 3:16 so...even if I do fail, I should be able to eclipse that by a good margin! Thanks again so much and I'll be sure to report, you got my word!

I'm rooting for you 7:30. Good luck!

Great thread here. good luck 7:30!

At the risk of hijacking, I thought I'd pose my 2Q question in here. I've read the 3rd Edition and have done some googling but haven't really found an answer to this one. I'm looking at using the 2Q plan for Boston, with a peak around 65-70km/week. I have a PR of 3:08 off similar mileage, but it was on pretty aimless training. My question is around how best to integrate crosstraining. 2Q was recommended as being well suited to crosstraining, but I haven't actually seen how to do it. Specifically, I also do triathlons, and over the winter will be maintaining base cycling fitness with about 3-4 hours per week on my indoor trainer. Has Daniels ever addressed how to account for crosstraining in his plans? If I'm cycling on 3 of the 5 days that aren't considered Q days each week, how does that factor into it? Like a typical week could look something like:

Su - Q1 run

M - Cycling 1

T - E run

W - E run

Th - Q2 run

Fr - Cycling 2

Sa - Cycling 3, and short E run

How do I account for the cycling volume in here? Am I undermining the Daniels plan doing this? Thanks in advance!

Hey there xtrain, I am no expert on any of this stuff. I've loosely read most of the book and I've followed the 2q plan. I don't recall jd getting into any detail on cross training.

What I've learned is that the E volume complements the Q workouts. In other words, if you are not doing enough volume, you will not be able to complete the Q workouts. Those E runs give you the strength to withstand long runs with embedded workouts.

My best guess is that you will "know" pretty quickly if your cycling is sabotaging your running because you won't be able to achieve the goal of the workouts. In that case you'd have to either adjust your Qs to match reality, limit your biking, or bring up your total E volume if your body can handle it.

Now, I wonder where 7:30 is at?