Who WINS in their prime going toe to toe Jim Ryun versus Coe?

Come on. You know that Ryun ran 3:33.1 on cinders in mid 90s weather to set the world record. And you know that he had terrible pacing on most occasions because he usually was running in the lead the whole way. If he had been running behind two or three pacers to 1200m or 1320y the way that Coe and El G and Kiprop have been able to do, and he was chasing a much faster world record on synthetic surfaces, you know that he would have run far under 3:30, probably closer to 3:28 or better. That 4x400m time was run on a very muddy track in a storm, and do not claim that it is easy to sprint in those conditions, particularly after a 3:55 in those very same conditions--and he was sick. His contemporaries saw that in 1966 and especially 1967, he was far, far better than anyone who'd ever lived. He destroyed Keino at that time, he destroyed his German competitors, no small fry, in Dusseldorf with that close of 36 in a 3:38 on a dirt track--and no incentive to push to the finish with those guys left behind early in the backstretch; and he destroyed the 880y, 1500m, and mile world records. Even his time in Mexico City, at 7000 feet, coming off mono, was extraordinary for a non-altitude athlete (3:37). Short career, hard to make any money in that era, Coe never had to run an Olympics at altitude (though I do think that if he had had competitors like Cruz in 1981 at his peak he would have run faster at 800m and with competitors even like Morceli would have run substantially faster at 1500m in 1981), and Ryun was tripped in 1972 and knocked out unfairly (today he'd be restored).

Ryun's career is littered with hardluck stories, excuses, and extraordinary performances in meaningless dual meets.

Coe, on the other hand, is the most decorated Olympic middle distance runner of all time with the fastest middle distance times of any man ever.

Deanouk wrote:

Forget about a 4:06 mile, Coe's Moscow 800 is all the evidence one needs to see just how quick he was.

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He got smoked in that race.

Ricans wrote:

Deanouk wrote:

Forget about a 4:06 mile, Coe's Moscow 800 is all the evidence one needs to see just how quick he was.

.

He got smoked in that race.

I think that's the point.

Coe managed to generate the same closing speed in a faster 800 than Ryun managed in a 1500, but still lost. You do what you need to win a race, and sometimes the absolute best of an athlete is not required. But when you've put yourself in an almost impossible position to win, you are forced to go all out to try and catch the leader or get back on terms.

In terms of winning important races, Ryun's record doesn't compare. Those who claim he was better because of crazy splits in slow or unimportant races, need to recognise the fact that there have been others who could have managed similar finishing ability in the right situation.

If there has never been the need for someone to go all out over the last 300m to win in an average 3:38 time, then it's pretty moot point.

To think that Coe, with 45 sec 400 ability couldn't close a 3:38 1500 in 50 sec off the same lap times as Ryun, when he has run the equivalent of a sub 50 sec at the end of a 1:44 800 is plain silly.

I don't doubt that there have been a handful of others who could manage something similar too.

Ryun has never finished a 3:38 1500 in 12.1 for the last 100m, as Coe did in Moscow, off a last 700m at 1:46 pace. Just because he has never actually done it, doesn't mean he couldn't do this either. I expect he could in the right circumstances.

But if I had to bet my house on one of them to win an important race over 8 or 15 in their primes, I would go for Coe every time.

Reality Bytes wrote:

If it's in an Olympic final, Coe.

If it's a meaningless dual meet in shitty conditions, Ryun.

I don't know who would win-but you are a total idiot. Coe ran great in the Olympics--full credit. Ryan ran a terrific race in Mexico City--he lost to a fantastic runner (Kip Keino) who had lived at altitude most of his life and they were racing at altitude. No shame in that. In Munich he tripped--it happens. Sometimes random shit goes wrong. Doesn't mean he wasn't fast or chokes on a big stage.

Metric Miler wrote:

Can't even believe this is a thread.

1:44.9 converts to 1:44.3 (800m)

3:51.1 converts to 3:34.0 (1500m)

Coe: 1:41.7, 3:29.77

Just no contest.

The difference in surfaces is not worth 4.3 seconds over 1500m and certainly not worth 2.6 seconds over 800m. Coe is a head height above Ryun.

Some people here are just so obsessed over american high school phenoms that they lose sight of reality.

Maybe Jim Ryun could have run 1:41 if he had been trained better and had a longer career. Maybe Coe could have run 1:40 if he could have raced Rudisha. We don't know.

Jim Ryun peaked when he was young.

End of discussion.

Hate to break it to you little guy but saying "End of discussion" does not make it so.

Hate 2 wrote:

Metric Miler wrote:

Can't even believe this is a thread.

1:44.9 converts to 1:44.3 (800m)

3:51.1 converts to 3:34.0 (1500m)

Coe: 1:41.7, 3:29.77

Just no contest.

The difference in surfaces is not worth 4.3 seconds over 1500m and certainly not worth 2.6 seconds over 800m. Coe is a head height above Ryun.

Some people here are just so obsessed over american high school phenoms that they lose sight of reality.

Maybe Jim Ryun could have run 1:41 if he had been trained better and had a longer career. Maybe Coe could have run 1:40 if he could have raced Rudisha. We don't know.

Jim Ryun peaked when he was young.

End of discussion.

Hate to break it to you little guy but saying "End of discussion" does not make it so.

I know, but I wish it did.

Ryun was a great athlete and ran fantastic times when he was young. This could show he had the potential to run amazing times with better training; fine. Ryun was not the only man to run on cinders or clay btw.

What it does not mean is that his 3:33 or 1:44 runs were actually worth 1:39 or 3:24 performances. That is just silly.

Coe was a more accomplished athlete who ran faster times and beat better competition.

Metric Miler wrote:

Ryun was not the only man to run on cinders or clay btw.

No but he was by far the fastest.

Metric Miler wrote:

Coe was a more accomplished athlete who ran faster times and beat better competition.

On faster tracks with pacers and more competition to push him.

The countries which did not feel safe in Los Angeles: Afghanistan

Angola

Bulgaria

Cuba

Czechoslovakia

Ethiopia

German Democratic Republic

Hungary

Iran

Laos

Libya

Mongolia

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Poland

Soviet Union

Vietnam

Name a single runner that could have challenged Coe

He already named two runners from the DDR who'd run, I think, faster 1500s than Coe.

First of all, you do some double counting there, saying that Coe ran 50.7 407m in a 1:44.41. No. He ran 50.7 407m in a 1:45.85. 50.7 is not brilliant in an 800m. That was coming off of a 55 first lap. It is a huge negative split but reverse it and you'll see that it is not that impressive. Go out in 50 and come back in 54 and you've got a conventional 1:44. And he was chasing Ovett on synthetic, while Ryun was ahead of the others after a few strides--no reason to push it that much--and running on cinders, where your foot slips back with every step, as you'd know if you ever ran on them. Moreover, closing a 1500m in 50 with a 36 300m is very different from closing an 800m in that time. 3:38 at the time was just 5 seconds off the world record and he closed it in 50. Of course, we'll never know exactly until the full tape comes out.

Altitude doesn't make up for the fact that Ryun was completely fresh for the 1500 in Mexico. Kip Keino on the other hand had already run in the 5000 and 10000 before hand and was severely ill with gallstones but still won by the biggest margin ever for 1500.

72 just shows Ryun can't race in a pack.

jjjjj wrote:

Moreover, closing a 1500m in 50 with a 36 300m is very different from closing an 800m in that time.

You are correct. Closing quickly is much harder in an 800 because the first lap is mostly anaerobic, meaning the second lap must be mostly aerobic which is a much slower energy system. The first 3 laps of a 1500 however are mostly aerobic, leaving plenty of anaerobic potential for the last lap, which is a much faster energy system.

If Ryun had been coached by Coe senior he would still be world record holder in 1500/mile

jjjjj wrote:

First of all, you do some double counting there, saying that Coe ran 50.7 407m in a 1:44.41. No. He ran 50.7 407m in a 1:45.85.

No, there is no double counting there.

Coe ran the 2nd bend (200 -300) in Moscow in the outside of lane 2, practically lane 3 in places. That's a conservative 4m extra on the first lap.

He runs 7m extra on the 2nd lap, for 11m extra in total. That's 1.44sec.

Bringing his total time down to 1:44.4, and his laps of 55.1 (for 404m) and 50.7 (for 407m) down to 54.6 and 49.8.

Name me one other sub 1:45 race where the 2nd lap has been sub 50 sec!

JRinaldi wrote:

Coe over Ryun...end of thread.

I don't know if this has been mentioned on one of the other threads but has any of them ever been asked this question?

Or, for example, has Ryun talked about what he thought he could run with the conditions available to the athletes competing today?

I would be interested to know what he thinks. What he feels could have been improved.

btfdr wrote:

Ryun was severely overtrained, only had a couple of good years and won nothing.

Except for everything under the sun from his 1965 win over Peter Snell to the Olympic Games in Mexico City.

What a stupid comment.

Coe would have Ryun and the US banned from competition, then win by default.

Coe and his father put together a training regimen that maximized his skills. Ryun and his coaches did not.

I suspect Coe may have also used PEDs, whereas I don't believe Ryun ever did.

Head to head, I believe that Coe would have taken Ryun down because of those factors. However, if Ryun had the proper training and they competed fair and square, it would have been a most interesting race.