Makhloufi destroying workouts

Renato, all you have is the results of your athletes. If you are truly certain they are clean then all you have is proof that you have coached clean athletes to an elite standard. I do not see any evidence that PEDs do not work on elite athletes.

Like the other guy said, you shouting and waving your arms about is not evidence of anything.

The athletes in that study were adapted to altitude from birth and had similar blood levels to elite athletes from Kenya.

We are all human. The variance across us as a race is fairly small. Artificial drugs added to the system stimulate changes that cannot occur naturally. You can take so much EPO that your blood becomes so viscous you die from a heart attack (as happened to one man talked about in that documnetary), these are changes that could not be achieved with training or being born at altitude.

There is nothing physiologically that says that a sub 13 5k guy is immune to drugs that affect all other humans.

Renato makes very good points that the way certain studies have been done. For instance this Runners World piece is not "good science." You can't just take "scrubs" and project those results onto elite runners.

Garbage [data] in = Garbage [data] out.

That is not to say that I am not skeptical about the claims that EPO has no effect on the top guys. But I will be first to admit that I am not qualified to judge and I really shouldn't try and attempt to discredit someone that has made a lifetime of coaching elite athletes.

Maybe there is a point at which the blood is totally saturated and the body can't use all that it has, and therefore any extra is just a waste or maybe even a hindrance?

He has spent a lifetime coaching CLEAN athletes, remember?

He shouldn't know a damn thing about the effects of dope on elites.

Metric Miler, Is it possible that one of/ the best distance coach in the world might have a better understanding of both the situation in Kenya and doping? This reminds me of a child arguing with a scientist. Just shut up! You are a troll who time and time again shows you are ignorant.

Y Kawauchi wrote:

Metric Miler, Is it possible that one of/ the best distance coach in the world might have a better understanding of both the situation in Kenya and doping? This reminds me of a child arguing with a scientist. Just shut up! You are a troll who time and time again shows you are ignorant.

Is it possible that a man who has made a living coaching Kenyan athletes wants to try and protect the integrity of Kenyan athletics so as to preserve the appearance of himself and his athletes?

There is NO denying that Kenya has a doping problem. If you refuse to believe that then you are a major fool. WADA, the IAAF, the IOC have all said it. Kenyan athletics officials have been suspended over corruption claims including hiding positive drugs tests. Many have been caught in tests carried out by IAAF and 'in-competition' testing suggesting far more get away with it. Athletes have come out and said drug use is common and that doctors set up shop specifically in areas where lots of athletes train to provide them with PEDs. Multiple independant journalists have gone into Kenya, reported on and filmed drug usage amongst athletes and the doctors that offer the drugs. World class athletes from Kenya have come out and said that there are not enough doping controls and that teenagers particularly are tempted and use the drugs to escape poverty.

Renato knows all of this and so instead attempts to say drugs don't work, which is nonsense of the highest order.

Do not be so blind. Athletes from every country would dope if the opportunity presented itself, make no mistake. I'm not saying every athlete from every country, but there will be some from every country for sure.

Where there is money to be made, money will be made. People will cheat to better themselves. Others will assist those cheating to better themselves also. It is human, it is survival.

Unless there is effective enforcement in place that prevent people breaking the rules, you will get cheating and you can bet your bottom dollar on that as a message to take away for life.

Metric Miler wrote:

Watch the documentary to see cheap. available EPO injections for yourself. Watch an anonymous Kenyan international marathoner state that all the guys are using EPO, himself included.

Are you really going to tell me that Asbel Kiprop can not afford the good stuff?

Another article

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/apr/16/kenyan-epo-tv-documentary-wada

reported similar practices last year. The German ARD documentary released a little while back reported the same thing. Plain old EPO is cheap and effective.

Haha are you serious?? - the fact that it is anonymous takes away all it's potential credibility.

TV Producer:

"Hi poor runner without much money. If I give you some money please can pull your hood over your head and tell me that all top runners are doping? Don't worry you don't need to provide any proof - we wrote our story before we arrived here, we just need to fill in the blanks with some 'quotes' from 'international' runners?

Poor Runner:

"But I am not a doper"

TV Producer:

"That's largely irrelevant. We just need you to say that you and your colleagues are doping."

Poor Runner:

"But why?"

TV Producer:

"Because it's a good story. And in this day and age facts and proof are completely irrelevant in the media - we just need anonymous sources and then we can say anything we like.

Plus - we will give you 10,000 Kenyan Shillings"

Poor Runner:

"OK let's go"

i agree with you 100%, rento can claim all he wants. PEDs dont work blah blah blah, why would they take them blah blah blah

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/15425125/dee-gordon-miami-marlins-banned-80-games-peds-violation

again there is INCENTIVE to use PEDs because there is money to be made.

this guy was a minor league nobody, he takes PEDs and scores a 50 mill contract. you dont think docs and managers and coaches give these guys loans and supply them with PEDs? its an investment for these people to take a high % of the runners appearance fees etc...more likely than not the athletes are in big debts to these docs, managers and coaches.

oh please wrote:

Renato makes very good points that the way certain studies have been done. For instance this Runners World piece is not "good science." You can't just take "scrubs" and project those results onto elite runners.

Garbage [data] in = Garbage [data] out.

That is not to say that I am not skeptical about the claims that EPO has no effect on the top guys. But I will be first to admit that I am not qualified to judge and I really shouldn't try and attempt to discredit someone that has made a lifetime of coaching elite athletes.

Maybe there is a point at which the blood is totally saturated and the body can't use all that it has, and therefore any extra is just a waste or maybe even a hindrance?

'The improvements were similar even though before and after they doped the Kenyans had much higher hemoglobin and hematocrit values (than Scots), which are markers related to red blood cell quality and density. The study shows that athletes who are born and train at altitude benefit similarly to sea-level athletes from EPO.'

'Second, doping in Kenya has been one of the leading stories in elite running over the past year. Mathew Kisorio (seen above), the third fastest half-marathoner in history, has alleged widespread doping in Kenya's training camps. Kisorio tested positive for a stimulant, and later admitted to taking EPO. In recent months, a handful of Kenyan marathoners, including one with a 2:05 PR, have received doping bans.'

'The revelation comes as one of Kenya’s most promising athletes, Mathew Kisorio, recently caught taking steroids, has alleged widespread abuse of EPO within the country.'

Journalist posing as an athlete investigating a doctor working in Kapasabet, 'The doping discussion was after and he claimed to have a lot of experience with athletes, how he could do it right away and he had EPO, testosterone, whatever. He then showed us the laboratory in the back of the clinic.'

You realise with such little doping control that pretty much anything is available to use? If you want to argue (incorrectly) that EPO doesn't work on elites (laughable look at cycling) then please also tell me that steroids, HGH etc don't work also. Any drug that improve performance can be taken with little to no consequences.

This feels unreal to me that I am having to tell people on a board that loves to discredit every American/European/North African runner as 'dirty' that Kenya has very poor anti-doping measures when it is all over the sports news, top of WADAs priorities and has been the subject of many investigations and studies.

Is everyone here a Kenyan or something?

You are naive.

Did they pay the doctor as well? And Matthew Kisorio? And Moses Kiptanui?

What about the other investigations showing doctors giving out EPO/steroid shots? And WADA? Did all of them just make this all up to victimize Kenya?

I like Makhloufi.

People such as renato canova are why this sport is deteriorating. He knows exactly what's happening, but instead chooses to lie about it and in turn profit significantly from athletes doping. Anyone who believes him is incredibly naive and gullible. Him saying makhloufi is probably clean is an absolute joke. His original story was Kenyans don't dope, then suddenly changed to saying the top Kenyans don't dope and it does t help them. Anyone who believes this is uneducated with regards to peds and doping. Doping has great performance benefits for everyone. Until frauds such as canova, who have significant influence on the sport are kicked out, cheating will be a major issue

Renato Canova wrote:

I'm totally against doping, but I want athletes can know the reality : with steroids, they can increase their muscle strength going at a level NOT REACHABLE WITH TRAINING ONLY, and the effects can last for years.

Strength training can last for years and is just the nature of strength, nothing to do with artificial drugs.

Artificial steroids have nothing to do with top performances, except some empty brains think they have to use them to strength train.

Use your brain wrote:

The idea that drugs make people faster by knocking them out of homeostasis is infantile and ridiculous.

Such stupid ideas have their credibility only from big pharma drug advertisements absorbed by empty brains unwilling to think for themselves, but no basis of fact.

Don't be stupid.

Iten the home of dopers wrote:

It has been pretty much proven that Kenyans have no genetic advantage over Europeans/Americans. All these unknown Kenyans bursting onto the scene with 3:32s and 1:44s, no genetic advantage and all these PEDs. Makes you think don't it!

Sure. So being built like this doesn't confer advantages in middle distance running?

Metric Miler, nobody denies the fact EPO can raise Hct and Hb. What I deny, for athletes at any level, but trained at their maximal possibility, is that HIGH HCT AND HB ARE DIRECTLY CONNECTED WITH THE PERFORMANCE.

You can tell me there are plenty studies demonstrating a connection between level of Hct / Hb and performance. You can also tell me that in cyclism the doped athletes can have big advantages.

But I can show you that the most part of top runners DON'T HAVE HIGH HCT and HB. I can tell you that, with proper training in altitude, the top athletes can produce about 1 and half liter of blood more in their cardiovascular system. I can tell you that Gelindo Bordin won Marathon in Olympic Games 1988 with levels of 12.8 Hb and 39.7 Hct, when Genny Di Napoli had normally 18.5 and 52, and when had 17 and 49 only was in anaemia. I can tell you that, when you coach athletes and they improve their shape, the levels of HCT and HB become lower (so, if training produces at the same time the effect of improving performances, and of reducing the level of Hct and Hb, why we have to think that THE EFFECT BECOMES THE CAUSE OF THE PERFORMANCE, and having exactly the opposite of what happens IN ANY ENDURANCE ATHLETE, we can have advantages in the performance ?).

Mathew Kisorio was the only athlete who asked DIRECTLY for some help for his training, legal or illegal. This happened after his Boston Marathon, when he almost walked the last 5 km finishing in 2:18, and this fact created in his mind the convinction he was not able to sustain the tough training needed for a top Marathon. THIS HAPPENED AFTER RUNNING HIS BEST HM CLEAN (58'46" in 2011), AND AFTER STARTING DOPING HE WAS CAUGHT POSITIVE IN THE WORST COMPETITION OF HIS CAREER (National Championships 10000m on track in 28'23"1 in 2012, when in 2011 he was able running 26'54"25 at sea level and in 2010 in 27'28"13 in altitude : 55" slower AFTER DOPING !).

You can argue he already used doping BEFORE those performances, and I ask you : if you believe in what Kisorio says about doping, why you don't want to believe in ALL what he says, including the fact he started to ask for doping after Boston 2012 only ?

The last documentary of Seppelt is a total bullshit. He went to interview some NO ATHLETE, who said one of his teammates called Kipketer died for EPO. Supposing the sory can be true (I have several doubts), this Kipketer NEVER ran any Marathon, NEVER was in top 30 in any competition in Kenya, and NEVER ran under 31 minutes in road races of 10 km. In other words, was not an athlete, but a farmer trying to run.

Everybody with mental balance understands that starting a documentary with this image, referring everything to the TOTAL KENYAN ACTIVITY, is the best way for cheating unaware people who believe in those "built" reports, in order to create scoops and to produce smoke.

I never denied there is a problem of doping in Kenya. In 2012, I was the first going to speak directly to the chairman Isaiah Kiplagat about this problem, giving also some precise information about situations we had in Iten, too. But the problem is that, for the most part of people, this problem involves ALL THE BEST ATHLETES, who instead are completely out of this situation. How I pointed several times, are athletes of second and third level, mainly competing in domestic races, who are easily cheated by doctors and pharmacists, ALL KENYAN (so, don't involve foreign managers, since more than 50% of the athletes caught for doping didn't have any manager),

So, the problem now is to change the mind of people in the World, NOT ABOUT THE FACT IF THERE IS OR NOT DOPING IN KENYA, BUT ABOUT THE FACT THE TOP PERFORMANCES ARE CLEAN.

This is because were the top athletes requesting the new law, and not some politician or athletic official : because they want their names and their image can be clean, since is very much frustrating the consciousness to win competitions and to better records when you are clean, and the general vision is you are a cheater for the only fact nobody believes possible running so fast, and you become guilty for the mistakes of somebody else.

It's like to think, because in US there were many crazy people Killing students in some school, all the US Citizen are killer, and this is frankly not acceptable.

But, I repeat again : there is one way for changing the common idea about blood doping and endurance athletes : to use some money, and a good scientific organization, for studying the effects of training in altitude for this type of athletes. I already know what happens, researchers and, of course, LR posters don't know. This is the reason because I never become tired to explain the REAL situation (not to defend somebody, I don't defend anybody : I want to explain) to people not knowing, who are skeptic about what I say, but need to have different and proper informations, something at the moment doesn't exist.

patsy's rats wrote:

Iten the home of dopers wrote:

It has been pretty much proven that Kenyans have no genetic advantage over Europeans/Americans. All these unknown Kenyans bursting onto the scene with 3:32s and 1:44s, no genetic advantage and all these PEDs. Makes you think don't it!

Sure. So being built like this doesn't confer advantages in middle distance running?

http://www.photorun.net/images_L/2012/RR/Kenya_Feb12/Kiprop_Asbel/Kiprop_Asbel1b-Kenya12.jpg

Metric Miler wrote:

This feels unreal to me that I am having to tell people on a board that loves to discredit every American/European/North African runner as 'dirty' that Kenya has very poor anti-doping measures when it is all over the sports news, top of WADAs priorities and has been the subject of many investigations and studies.

Is everyone here a Kenyan or something?

Is it IS "unreal" because........what you described above is....... not reality. Pretty simple, eh? In other words: you created quite the straw-man.

This board does not, in any way, shape, or form " love to discredit every American/European/North African runner as 'dirty'." Nope, never happened.

Ok, yes, at some point, joking or not , virtually ever runner who has ever been mentioned on here, no matter where they are from, gets accused of PED use. But this is hardly more prevalent against "American/Europeans" than other nations (we can discuss North Africans in a moment). Please. There is, I would say, in fact a clear Euro-ancestry bias on here in general, and especially when it comes to doping accusations. Does this surprise you, when the majority of posters are white and of euro-ancestry??? (Oh, right, we are all self-hating white people, just bending over backwards to defend the black runners, and accuse the white runners, is that it?? C'mon, get real. ) Does this surprise you when the large majority of "hard to fathom" performances were done by....yup, you guessed it, E. Africans.... ?? Who is gonna get accused, the guy running 26:17 or the guy running 28:17 ??

You know, it seems "unreal to me" that I would have to explain to YOU that posters have been accusing East Africans of cheating LOOOONG before there was even much evidence against them (since you don't seem to have a good knowledge about T &F, something you are continually proving with each and every post, look up: correlation of T & F WR progression in distance races (99% done by East Africans) and development of the drug EPO. See if you get some posts to pop up. rojo himself in fact wrote one piece on this topic a loooooong time ago).

Now once some actual doping positives came up for some E. Africans.....whooaaa .....for the love of God, what a field day the anti-east african folks had!! They were now sure that EVERY great performance done in the last 25 years by an E. African was a doped one. They were declaring that the E. African dominance of distance running had all been a charade, the white guy had been cheated again! Again, there were COUNTLESS threads on this or similar topics. You are seriously unaware of this???

The PED accusations on white/US/Euro runners came more recently, when finally some of them started actually having performances on par with or close to the E. Africans. And of course the Salazar connection to many of these runners caused the situation to blow up more. Lastly, yes, there are jealous haters everywhere, who want to tear down everyone. Some choose certain targets over others, and others choose different targets.

So stop with your "is every one Kenyan on here???" nonsense. *Some * people on here just believe that 2 things can be true at the same time: that

a) yes, there is some form of doping/lack of doping control/testing problems in E. Africans involving shady doctors and agents and that some of the better E. Africans have doped, BUT....

b) It is not nearly widespread as you are trying to make it sound, and it is also true that it is quite likely that the E. African utter dominance of distance running the past 25 years had little to do with point "a", and that even without any doping the large majority of the results would the same.

See how that works?? It's not that complicated.

Iten the home of dopers wrote:

patsy's rats wrote:

Sure. So being built like this doesn't confer advantages in middle distance running?

http://www.photorun.net/images_L/2012/RR/Kenya_Feb12/Kiprop_Asbel/Kiprop_Asbel1b-Kenya12.jpg

http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54b69e82e4b0a3e130d042ac/54dce273e4b01241a6162b87/5599ea15e4b0af241ed8939c/1436150420722/?format=1000w

Your man there has limb proportions akin to your typical Kenyan elite, and he's widely regarded as one of the most talented runners the US has ever had; has run, yup, 3:32.

There's not many Americans built like Evan Jager. Kind of supports my point, yeah?

patsy's rats wrote:

Iten the home of dopers wrote:http://static1.squarespace.com/static/54b69e82e4b0a3e130d042ac/54dce273e4b01241a6162b87/5599ea15e4b0af241ed8939c/1436150420722/?format=1000w

Your man there has limb proportions akin to your typical Kenyan elite, and he's widely regarded as one of the most talented runners the US has ever had; has run, yup, 3:32.

There's not many Americans built like Evan Jager. Kind of supports my point, yeah?

What? There are Americans of all body types and Kenyans of all body types! You don't understand genetics. Being skinny doesn't make you fast!