Ru[[ wrote:
Farah certainly ranks above Aouita in the GROAT discussion.
I'll say it again.
3:28 for 1500m
59:23 for 1/2 marathon
less than 2 months apart!!!
(with 2 world championship titles between the two 5000m and 10000m).
I agree with this.
In terms of range displayed within a short period of time, no one surpasses Mo with his 1500m and half-marathon performances.
I guess we will have to wait until the Olympics to see, but does anyone think a well marathon trained Rupp could compete with Kipchoge in London? Rupp ran the trials well in hot conditions and did not seem phased at all in his first marathon. He's clearly faster than his trials time. Is he that much faster???
Bad Wigins wrote:
Right between 800 and 5000 sits the 3000, and don't try to say Choge doesn't dominate Aouita there.
.
Last week Augustine Choge has done a big step foreward in the range category with a 28:22.8 in a national meet in Kenya. So, much more to expect from him over the distance. in the future.
To the laughable comment above:
Choge:: 5 sub 7:30, 11 sub 7:35
Aouita: 1 sub 7:30, 6 sub 7:35
Indication that Choge "dominates" Aouita? Well, anybody with a little will for objectivity and a look at the context must come to a different conclusion.But I know you are not interested in facts.
Augustine choge has showed great range from 800m to 5000m so far and is not far from Aouita in this category. But I can' see him better this in the seasons to come. From 800m to 10000m he probably has a shot to better Aouita (see above). A sub 27 and he easily is top here. But when looking at the eras when the times were achieved, the picture still would be different. But interesting what Choge still can do.
But I can't (!!) see him...
I want to add that a guy like Asbel Kiprop easily should be CAPABLE to achieve a better sequence of marks from 800m to 5000m than both Aouita and Choge. But I don't know if he's after this at all.
Seyta wrote:
Bbb wrote:I really hate when people compare World Records. Haile just had luck to run several years earlier. If his prime was today, he would have exactly zero world records so what?
It is mentally easier though to run 2:03 if the world record is below and you know these times are humanly possible.
This type of reasoning applies to guys like Peter Snell, Jim Ryun, Ron Clarke, etc. who ran in eras where competition was scarce enough that World Records were very vulnerable. Back then, given that it was impossible to financially support yourself by running due to the amateur athletics laws, only the lucky individuals who had jobs that allowed them enough time to train could continue developing post-collegiately.
This ABSOLUTELY cannot be applied to Haile Gebrselassie, who ran in what was arguably the strongest era of distance-running. Gebrselassie ran when Golden League offered a $1 million prize, and legions of Africans were throwing everything on the line at almost every race. Runners in this era could dedicate 100% of their time to running and nothing else.
A decade and a half after Gebrselassie's prime, only ONE runner has ever run faster than his 5000m and 10000m records. Gebrselassie (with some help from Komen) brought the 5000m record from 12:58 to 12:39, and brought the 10000m record from 26:52 to 26:22.
If Gebrselassie was hitting his prime now, Bekele's records would be gone. The reason Gebrselassie didn't run faster was that he didn't have to. Every time a challenger broke his record (Komen, Tergat, Kiptanui, Hissou), Gebrselassie pushed himself until he took it back. The only reason he couldn't do the same to Bekele was that 6 years had gone by and he had grown too old to do so. Modern runners, Kipchoge included, no longer even dream of achieving his times.
^This
wtfunny wrote:
Seyta wrote:If Gebrselassie was hitting his prime now, Bekele's records would be gone. The reason Gebrselassie didn't run faster was that he didn't have to. Every time a challenger broke his record (Komen, Tergat, Kiptanui, Hissou), Gebrselassie pushed himself until he took it back. The only reason he couldn't do the same to Bekele was that 6 years had gone by and he had grown too old to do so. ...
MAYBE
Geb broke Komen's 5000m by less than 0.4 sec. it's fair to say Geb may well have never run faster than this time regardless who came along.
The earlier part of your argument works both ways .... Geb ran in arguably the strongest era of distance running, when legions of Africans (and others) threw everything at almost every race ... I'd say he was pretty maxed out accordingly.
... Modern runners, Kipchoge included, no longer even dream of achieving his times.
Yes and no .. Kipchoge just broke Geb's marathon best by nearly a minute.
When Geb set his marathon WR he was way past his prime.
Ru[[ wrote:
I'd also like to bring up El G into the mix if we are bringing up Aouita.
5000 12:50 in WC race.
...
12,52 to be precise.
nope., wrote:
is marathon WR he was way past his prime.
This.
Geb in 26:22 form would probably beat Kipchoge by ~1min+ in a marathon.
nope., wrote:
When Geb set his marathon WR he was way past his prime.[/quote]
fixed quote.
smile wrote:
Ru[[ wrote:Farah certainly ranks above Aouita in the GROAT discussion.
I'll say it again.
3:28 for 1500m
59:23 for 1/2 marathon
less than 2 months apart!!!
(with 2 world championship titles between the two 5000m and 10000m).
I agree with this.
In terms of range displayed within a short period of time, no one surpasses Mo with his 1500m and half-marathon performances.
Odd. I don't recall Farah being ranked number one in the world in the 800, 1500, or mile. But Aouita was. I also don't recall Farah setting world records in the 1500m, the 2000m, the 3000m, or the 5k. But Aouita did. And won OG in the 5k in 984 and 4 years later a bronze in the 800m
This isn't even an argument. Hands down, beyond all doubt, Said Aouita had the greatest range of any distance runner in history.
Not until wrote:
smile wrote:I agree with this.
In terms of range displayed within a short period of time, no one surpasses Mo with his 1500m and half-marathon performances.
Odd. I don't recall Farah being ranked number one in the world in the 800, 1500, or mile. But Aouita was. I also don't recall Farah setting world records in the 1500m, the 2000m, the 3000m, or the 5k. But Aouita did. And won OG in the 5k in 984 and 4 years later a bronze in the 800m
This isn't even an argument. Hands down, beyond all doubt, Said Aouita had the greatest range of any distance runner in history.
Exactly right except for Aouita being a big drug cheat and Geb being the GROAT parts you did not remember.
Also the topic is not greatest range within a short period of time. The topic is greatest range of all time. OK?
Not until wrote:
smile wrote:I agree with this.
In terms of range displayed within a short period of time, no one surpasses Mo with his 1500m and half-marathon performances.
Odd. I don't recall Farah being ranked number one in the world in the 800, 1500, or mile. But Aouita was. I also don't recall Farah setting world records in the 1500m, the 2000m, the 3000m, or the 5k. But Aouita did. And won OG in the 5k in 984 and 4 years later a bronze in the 800m
This isn't even an argument. Hands down, beyond all doubt, Said Aouita had the greatest range of any distance runner in history.
Aouita set his 10,000 PR on July 5th 1986. His time was 27:26.11. His best 1500 that season was 3:36.1, which was en route to a 3:50.33 mile. This was on August 15th. Aouita's mile is worth 1197 points on the IAAF table and his 10,000 is worth 1185 points.
Farah ran a 1500 in 3:28.93 on July 17th 2015. On September 13th, Farah ran a 59:23 half marathon. Farah's 1500 is worth 1260 points on the IAAF table and his half-marathon is worth 1218.
Not only are both of Farah's mark superior performances on points, but they also cover a greater range than Aouita displayed over a similar period of time.
In fact, Aouita's 800m PR of 1:43.86, set on August 21st 1988, is an inferior performance to Farah's half-marathon PR. Aouita's 800 best is worth 1206 points, while Farah's half-marathon best is worth 1218 points. And Farah set that PR less than 2 months after running a faster 1500 than Aouita ever ran.
Aouita's second best mark of a different distance in 1988 was a 1500 of 3:32.69 run on July 10th, worth 1207 points, still inferior to Farah's half-marathon.
So Farah has displayed better range than Aouita both within a short period of time, and over any length of time.
Also I don't want to argue against your point that Farah has showed greater "range in short period of time" then Aouita, I just want to put your points little bit in the right context.
Farah's range is very impressive, no doubt.
But just a few facts ragarding Aouita:
He has achieved his times over a quarter of a century back.
The times you have listed from 1986 and 1988 don't reflect his abilities in these seasons at all.
His Mile win from Berlin '86 was not a race for fast time. He wanted to prove that even in a season where he concentrates more on the longer events, he still can beat most of the top milers in their speciality. He definitely was capable of running faster, also not close to his best from '85.
In his 10000m from Oslo he also just wanted to prove that he can beat the specialists (first to list here Alberto Cova) also over 10k. Cova before has declared the 10000m to be "his" event. The world record over the distance was planed for 1987. In Olso - in his first attempt over the distance - he ran big parts in 2nd land, easly worth at least 10seconds.
In Nice 1988 he just ran a wonderful last lap, no intention also here to run some record time. He just wanted to get into form for the very late Olympics in Seoul. In August Aouita concentrated more to get a sub 1:44 over 800m. I don't know how fast he could have ran in '88 over 1500m, but definitely faster then 3:32.69.
Aouita's range is better reflected by the fact of winning against some of the best over 800m, then against all of the best in the world over 10000m, and then again against most of the best over 800m. That's absolutely unique.
But was Farah has done also is unique, maybe better, I don't want to value this. But in a different manner.
RunnerZ wrote:
Is Kipchoge the GROAT.
Bekele no doubt takes the biscuit for me on the track. But in terms of track & road success, as well as PRs - is Kipchoge the GROAT?
Does Haile figure in the GROAT standings? ðŸ
Haile. No doubt.
Here is the answer:
Another Bekele Vs Choge
boroo wrote:
Here is the answer:
https://youtu.be/---LOIB8idE
Answer to which question?
otto blotto wrote:
When the discussion is SPECIFICALLY about range then yes someone with only one title can be in the discussion.
Range is a meaningless concept unless it actually leads to winning something. It's only "to make some people feel better for not winning more." Whoop de do. Let's make a special medal just for that.
So what you're saying is that you don't personally think that range is "meaningful"--whatever that means. Why don't you go start your own thread about why we shouldn't care about range. This is a thread for people who do care about range (whether because they find it "meaningful" or simply interesting), to discuss whose range is the best.
Bad Wigins wrote:
Wrong Choge. Eliud is great range from long distance to long distance which is no big deal. A lot of 5000m stars make good marathoners.
The true GROAT is AUGUSTINE Choge who is the only man in history to run sub 1:45, sub 3:30 (on a non-rigged track!), sub 7:30 (lots of times!) and sub 12:55 (which Said Aouita didn't.) That is range from long sprint to long distance which is much greater.
Already nobody can compare to Augustine but obviously he will eventually move up to 10000 and marathons and add sub 27 and sub 2:02 to his resume.
Everyone is looking at this only in terms of times, not medals. Aouita won Olympic medals at 5K and 800 (and he ran the 800 injured). To me that is more impressive than fast times from 1500 to marathon.
Can anyone name another runner capable of this? Geb, Farah, Choge, Bekele, Kipchoge? None of them could have medaled in the 800.
ctrlaltdel wrote:
Everyone is looking at this only in terms of times, not medals. Aouita won Olympic medals at 5K and 800 (and he ran the 800 injured). To me that is more impressive than fast times from 1500 to marathon.
Can anyone name another runner capable of this? Geb, Farah, Choge, Bekele, Kipchoge? None of them could have medaled in the 800.
And Aouita couldn't even dream of a 2:10 marathon! So what?
Geb and Kipchoge showed way more range, so did Farah and Bekele!
I don't see many world champion 1500m runner destroying the marathon WR way past their prime! that's how good Geb was!