How come my legs never hold me back?

Try racing the 800. Race as hard as you can especially the last 300. Shoot for 2:00 or under :) your legs should lock up and you breathing and you know what that is like. Everything will be slow motion including sound vision and legs. Pump arms and move your lead legs. With shorter distance your legs lock. Longer lungs. Maybe your have super genes that would allow you to be an amazing long distance sprinter. Let me know how it goes.

Yeah, sure, of course.But people talk about their legs being what holds them back in races 1600 -> 10K. For me it's always my high HR that is holding me back. BTW I still haven't found an answer to this problem. I recently read the other day about how some guys legs were sore after a work out. Really? My legs never get sore anymore. Maybe I am just doing it wrong.

Maholo wrote:

Try racing the 800. Race as hard as you can especially the last 300. Shoot for 2:00 or under :) your legs should lock up and you breathing and you know what that is like. Everything will be slow motion including sound vision and legs. Pump arms and move your lead legs. With shorter distance your legs lock. Longer lungs. Maybe your have super genes that would allow you to be an amazing long distance sprinter. Let me know how it goes.

It's a really interesting question. When I'm on a bike, it's my legs that give out and I almost always feel like I have enough air, but when running, it's always my lungs. My legs never get tired and sore only if I put in a hard interval workout if I hadn't been doing one for awhile . Until i read this post, I'd always assumed everyone was like this.

Perhaps some people's cardio systems are just more efficient at getting o2 to the leg muscles?

I work for a large Physicians group. There's a I.M. doctor here who runs marathons. I asked him what limited his speed and he said "lungs." I told him about this discussion and asked him what his opinion was of those whose limiting factor was their legs he said..."they are training wrong." I don't necessarily believe that and think there is more to it than training.

We've got got Cardiologists working in our group but not at my location. I'll track one down over the next few weeks to see if I can get a possibly more qualified point of view.

Got the exact same problem as OP. I haven't worked it out yet, but believe the lack of VO2max work is the problem. Also, lack of speedwork to get legs/muscles used to work at faster paces.

I'm curious, how do you train? I hardly do any work above threshold during base. Been at about 45-50 miles (hobby runner) per week last years. Are you a fast- or slow-twitched runner? I'm probably average, leaning a little towards fast-twitch. Maybe I would respond better to shorter intervals with higher speed. Although, got no problems doing longer intervals and tempos.

Can add that I have allergies (maybe mild asthma cause of it), and always run better in the fall. But believe being in better shape (raced into shape?) is the factor, and not the allergies.

Would be interesting to hear. I always assumed the same too until I started talking with a few of my friends and asking similar questions. I too can feel my legs being the limiting factor on the bike while my HR and breathing are in check, but when running, nope!

seikosha wrote:

I work for a large Physicians group. There's a I.M. doctor here who runs marathons. I asked him what limited his speed and he said "lungs." I told him about this discussion and asked him what his opinion was of those whose limiting factor was their legs he said..."they are training wrong." I don't necessarily believe that and think there is more to it than training.

We've got got Cardiologists working in our group but not at my location. I'll track one down over the next few weeks to see if I can get a possibly more qualified point of view.

I can run around a 13 or so hand timed 100 and about 26-27 for a 200. I have always had this problem as long as I can remember. I trained a lot of intervals before, and lately I have been focusing on more tempos and and trying to up my mileage. My PR from college days was 16:5X, and now I am around 17:5X. Always been the same thing though. Hoping I can find a way to train that makes my legs the limiting factor because with out the HR / Lungs holding me back my legs could handle a lot. I could fly! Haha

same problem wrote:

Got the exact same problem as OP. I haven't worked it out yet, but believe the lack of VO2max work is the problem. Also, lack of speedwork to get legs/muscles used to work at faster paces.

I'm curious, how do you train? I hardly do any work above threshold during base. Been at about 45-50 miles (hobby runner) per week last years. Are you a fast- or slow-twitched runner? I'm probably average, leaning a little towards fast-twitch. Maybe I would respond better to shorter intervals with higher speed. Although, got no problems doing longer intervals and tempos.

Can add that I have allergies (maybe mild asthma cause of it), and always run better in the fall. But believe being in better shape (raced into shape?) is the factor, and not the allergies.

You and retro are undoubtedly the same person. My post on this is fantastic and is a good understanding of the Lydiard system. The only person who truly understands what Lydiard did is Lydiard, because he changed over the years, and depending on who he was coaching.

Like Mihaly Igoli, Bill Bowerman, and others, Lydiard was a master coach.

You don't like what I wrote. That is okay, educate me. There is no way I know everything!!! Tell me what you didn't like and why you disagree with it. I'm on here to improve.

I think there are some intelligent people on LRC, the problem is some people think they know everything and are not open to change. One of the most difficult things is when you actually have to deal with people and try to implement the system you believe in. I could learn a lot from almost anyone on LRC about that!!!

Been doing just the same, tempos and stuff. Think aerobic fitness is just fine, it's just lack of VO2max work. Once a week is enough, can be replaced with ~5k races. Now VO2max work gives fast results, so should see improvement in a few weeks.

Was thinking, as a hobbyist, this is what my training phases looks like:

base -> race

Most philosophies:

base -> speed -> vo2max -> race

speed/vo2max is often combined

I experience the same thing. My legs are not the limiting factor. When my club and I are doing repeats, they complain about their legs burning and hurting. But I'm running just as fast or faster as them and my legs never get to that point because my lungs and breathing and heart rate is holding me back. I'm hitting well into the mid 90s in terms of percent of max heart rate during...say 800s or 1000 meter repeats and my legs could push me faster but not my heart.

Like another poster, I also started running later in life. Also played sports like basketball, skiing so i developed good leg strengtg but never did any endurance training so I just assume that I need to keep getting more and more mileage in.

I've continted to hit successive sub 3 hr marathon PRs even in late my 40s so I think the cardio development has been paying off.....even while the peak strength of my legs is in the past. But they do not limit me because my cardio is still underdeveloped.

Yup this is exactly the same for me. I feel like for guys such as us we have assessed the weakness (cardio fitness?) and so we just need to build better endurance to get to that point where our legs will instead be the limiting factor? Maybe?

This continues to be a very interesting thread.

I will throw in a curve here...

As I have said above, I have the same problem as the OP. My legs are never the limiting factor--never. People have discussed improving endurance and cardio fitness...yet my marathon time would seem to be the best of my PRs...3:02 vs. only 18:57 in the 5k (a hilly 5k). Most the guys that I regularly I compete against can beat me in the 5k, but in the marathon I can equal or better them.

I just found this old thread and I'm finding it fascinating.

I have always been, subjectively, leg strength limited in any moderately long race (5K or above). At my best, which was long long ago (I am now 58), my PRs were 18:10 for 5K and 2:43 for the marathon. No speed at all, but great endurance. Then and now, I am limited by leg strength--my legs go to jelly even though I'm not breathing uncontrollably hard. Rarely do my legs hurt, but they just run out of strength. I often feel fearful that my leg will simply give way when I plant my foot near the end of a race.

Having been a long-distance road racer all my life, just a few months ago I tried running a one-mile race for the first time in my life. This was the first time that I experienced "breathing limited". My legs were OK but I nearly collapsed for lack of oxygen in the finishing chute.

I have this problem too and have been thinking about it for months. I see it at the end of a race, people walking all wobbly because of their fatigued legs and there is me gasping for air still but my legs are fine.

In a 5K race I can overtake the person in front of me anytime I want and my legs will be fine but I'll have to slow back down because I can't breath.

At the end of a 5K race I ALWAYS always sprint finish because my legs are never tired, this is total anaerobic as it feels like I am holding my breath for 20 seconds.

I'm getting an asthma test too.

You are looking at it the wrong way. You see your lungs as been too weak but in fact it is your legs that are too strong. It is not your lungs holding you back in racing, it is your legs holding you back in training. You are running too slow resulting in your legs being over recovered and your lungs being under recovered. If you want to run at faster paces without suffering you have to train at faster paces and I guarantee that will break your legs down.

Remember your race performance is the total accumulation of your months and years of training so if you never run fast enough to break your legs down every week from higher aerobic work then your legs are always going to be stronger when you line up on race day.

I have the exact same problem. I may not get sore legs but sometimes after long tempo runs I can get sore ribs the next day! I can get a tight chest from training hard and I can feel it when I breath in. It just means our chassis is solid but our engines need to play catch up. People like this do well to race on slightly tired legs as it means they will not get that suffering feeling during a race because their legs will hold them back enough to prevent a cardio red line. I run my best races like this as my legs are usually a bit tired from running faster so my lungs are in an equilibrium trained state with my legs.

Do people who have this problem take one or more days off before a race? Maybe we would be best to do a long run before a race or back to back workout/race. I know I will do a race and red line out of breath the whole distance then the next day I will feel good on a run and feel like I am running faster without getting out of breath wandering why my race couldn't feel this good.

the people that suffer from tired legs just have inefficient biomechanics.

good biomechanics = stronger legs / neurological system = normal

bad biomechanics = weaker legs = this person didn't even get a good workout.

gthis is why swimmers have to strength train to be able to run fast races in triathlons because they have amazing cardio but crappy bio-mechanics from only running 15mpw.

cinder wrote:

I have this problem too and have been thinking about it for months. I see it at the end of a race, people walking all wobbly because of their fatigued legs and there is me gasping for air still but my legs are fine.

In a 5K race I can overtake the person in front of me anytime I want and my legs will be fine but I'll have to slow back down because I can't breath.

At the end of a 5K race I ALWAYS always sprint finish because my legs are never tired, this is total anaerobic as it feels like I am holding my breath for 20 seconds.

I'm getting an asthma test too.

Yup, that's me to a T. Let us know how the asthma test goes.