Peruvian runners - the new rivals to Kenya/Ethiopia and Japan

Ghost1 wrote:

Rodolfo Gomez is, arguably, one of the best - if not the best - marathon coaches in the world. If he had the resources of a Salazar setup, he would have athletes challenging at a higher level still.

Ghost in China,

http://www.omeida.com

Salazar in the Marathon -as a coach- with all the resources of Nike/NOP, never produced a sub 2:07 athlete.

jjjjj wrote:

Incidentally, I am not sure that the same altitude advantages hold for East African and South American and Himalayan-born peoples. The adaptations take a long time to arise, they may differ, and South American peoples have probably not been at altitude for more than 15,000 years, maybe a good deal less (those tracing back to pre-Columbian peoples), whereas it may be the case that East Africans trace back a good deal further than that, although I recall Malmo saying that present-day Kenyans don't go back in the Rift Valley that far because they stem from nomadic Bantu people.

So, with regard to Ethiopian people, the Amharic people (and other ethiosemitic language groups) they migrated there about 2800 years ago. The Oromo people moved into Ethiopia about about 500-600 years ago. They have probably been somewhere in Northeast Africa for a couple thousand years, but evidence is not great. But that probably represents the vast majority of the elite runners, and none of them have been there for anywhere near 15000 years, either. I suspect the South African people have been living at altitude for comparable time periods.

The Kalenjin moved into Kenya, it looks like, around 700 bc. They account for the plurality of really good Kenyan runners.

So, whatever the physiological adaptations that may allow East Africans to dominate international running, they clearly don't take thousands of years of adaptations to arise and thrive. Nor do we know that they will persist.

The day Salazar trains runners specifically for the marathon, you will see Americans running in the lower 2:05 - 2:06 range or better. No reason this should not be so. The knowledge is there, as are the facilities. These future runners, would have to be developed at an earlier age, for the marathon, and spend less of their apprenticeship on the track, which although excellent (Keflezhigi) may compromise young potential in the marathon. There is more specificity in the marathon these days, with the new methods put into place with Canova and others. Many of these runners in the low 2:04 - 2:06 pay lip service to track, not necessarily to their detriment. The previous logic (serve a long apprenticeship on the track and in cross country) is being re thought now.

Ritzenheim was atypical, in the sense that he usually somewhat bonked in his marathons, and/or had injury issues, or other problems, otherwise - Ritz, with better biomechanics, and fueling would have been down at around 2:04 - 2:05, instead of his pb - high 2:07.

Ghost in China,

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Had always wondered why the indigenous population found in the mountains and altitude were not exposed to endurance running. If you spend any time hiking to the ancient landmarks and come across the hundreds or porters you realize how easily they move at high altitude, carrying lots of lbs. on thei backs. I will try to believe that they are clean, like Quintana in cycling.

jjjjj wrote:

I can summarize his logorrhea: he is telling us about the running scene in Peru and Mexico, and a bit about the culture as well, and I am thankful for the information that I could not get anywhere else, even if I am skeptical about the Polish coach of top Mexican runners in the 1970s and 1980s and the current Peruvian coach.

I don't mind the information.

I think the culture defense that certain runners "couldn't possibly be doping" because they are honest people is disingenuous and ridiculous.

They might be doping, they might not be. I don't know. Same as pretty much everybody else in elite running.

I'm also a Peruvian runner and have lived in the States for a while (Div III college runner):

A few points:

- It's stupid to make blanket statements about people from different countries or different regions within countries.

- Yes I would agree that Highlands people are on average more honest (less corrupted by the negative aspects of capitalism if you will) ... and also much less educated. For some of them Spanish is not even their native language (their knowledge of English being null needless to say).

-In the specific case of Tejeda, I do think she did not willingly cheat.

-The Peruvian federation might be making Investments but they still have few resources, are understaffed and are not very organized

-Track infrastructure is almost non-existent, and track as a sport is not promoted

-Most of these runners come from poor backgrounds so they jump into the marathon because that's where the money is

-There has been a running boom in Peru in the last 10 years. When I started running in college, people would look at me a little weirdly when I went out and pounded a tempo run during holidays in Lima. Now EVERYONE and their mother runs.... i suspect we will also see non-highland Peruvian runners also make it to at least the sub-elite level.

Cheers!

i think if the peruvians continue to improve,theyll be a threat to east african dominance,in years to come,assuming more east africans get caught,and exposed as the cheats they are.not all of course,but i believe many top kenyans ,ethiopians,and others are on the sauce,and if they are exposed,their performances will slip,somewhat.i do not believe even for a minute,that a human being can run a 2.02-2.03 marathon without chemical help,or even sub 2.06.

in peru the numbers will grow,the depth will be there,and i wouldnt be suprised if just as many women and girls will end up running,as men,and theyll be comparitively just as good.african women arent quite as numerous,or as dominant as the men,but theyre getting there.with peru,it might be a very different story.so yeah,if the peruvians improve,which they will,and the africans slide just a little,which they might,theyll be evenly matched.itll be interesting if the ecuadorians,bolivians and colombians improve.

I'm confused how you and Ghost assume that there will be this big uprising (but Ghost pontificating dogmatically from his second-hand knowledge is no suprise). The Peruvians who've commented on the thread don't give a strong indication of a "change coming." Yes, Latin and South America has seen massive cultural and economic change in the last few decades, but I don't see a massive, East Africa-esque running boom sweeping through soon enough.

Have either of you spent time in Peru or these other countries; do you know these people, these runners, their environments??? I can't speak to the runners or the training particularily, but I've spent six months over the last decade in Peru, Bolivia, Ecuador, Colombia, Nicaraugua, Guatemala and Costa Rica. In all these countries I've spent time in the high mountain as well as the rural regions with the exact type of people you seem to think are ready to take the distance world by storm (with none of us seeing it coming). Nothing I've seen in my time there gives any indication to this possibility. Let's look at history:

The running world and its economics were very different in the 60s and 70s when Bile, Keino, Rono, etc walked into the Western-dominated distance running world and set records/changed the scene. From the 80s till now, the West was able to support athletes from East Africa for minimal $$$ and get huge results: WR, Medals, etc. In 2016, the WR are all fast - doped fast (and you say the "Highlands people" wont dope...). Nike, Adidas, etc are unlikely to invest the money necessary to create a new supergroup to top those who've proven themselves for 40 years. This is capitalist economics, remember, not a comic book fantasy of who the next hero will be. Do you really think the Peruvians/Ecuadorians/Colombians in the next decade will be running 13:00/27:30/2:06 on a regular basis to even be remotely competitive on the GLOBAL scene?

Sure, Barrios in MX and others you've cherry-picked above have dabbled in the back-pack of the international circuit, but those token racers and times won't tip the scales against the dozens of East Africans running the times I just mentioned, LET ALONE the 12:40/26:30/2:03 that will remain the expectation of the top-level echelon.

It's possible that the East Africans will be caught and cleaned up some in the coming years, but you seem to dismiss that doping will likely remain years ahead of testing. As long as major races have six figure purses, the East African race horses will be doped to win and bring paydays to their handlers and "supporters." Unless the kind, meek and mild South Americans that you're painting for us are willing to play the game, I don't think we'll see times faster than the dozen other countries with running production and NRs.

Hmmm. Where did we here this "next great runner" rhetoric before? Maybe Chris McDougal can spin another paperback for millions of dollars. The tarahumara really came to dominate the long game, no?

Of course they don't have great leg speed if they are going straight to the marathon. Without decent leg speed, there is a limit to how much they will ever improve. Most of those great African marathoners are capable of running a 4 minute mile. I don't how the Peruvian runners will dip much below 2:12 if they can't run a sub-29 10K per se. Sounds to me like they have a lot of natural endurance, why not work on their speed? Also, you mention their honesty, I think a lot of dopers were honest people in other aspects of their lives, but doped because of loyalty, obedience and naivety. Athletes are only part of the problem, agents, coaches and athlete's ignorance, loyalty & obedience to those in authority. Also, most people are honest because they know the risk and consequences of getting caught and don't have a great need to cheat. However, a lot of people will cheat when the financial incentives are great and they know they won't get caught. With out OOC testing and knowing placing high in a few marathon can be life changing for them and their families...the potential for doping will always exist. With all of that said, if the Peruvian training camps continue, in years to come I expect to see a lot of Peruvians on running scene and doing well running 2:12 - 2:15 in the sub-major marathons.

Ghost1 wrote:

Mucho gusto hablar con usted, Senor Peruano, y ojala que los corredores Peruanos de largas distancias hacen un buen papel en Rio. Tienen el potencial muy grande.

Ghost in China,

http://www.omeida.com

*fondistas Peruanos

Dude you have no idea what you're talking about. I'm surprised how many Peruvians are coming out of the woodwork though.

Anyone on the boards from Arequipa?

artud2000 wrote:

Yes and they are also into doping. Just like some Kenyans, Ethiopians, the Russians and Rupp.

http://www.peruthisweek.com/news-odepa-confirms-gladys-tejeda-tests-positive-for-doping-107353

Where's your link to prove Rupp doped? Oh wait...you don't have one.

Guessing most will be from Lima. I don't live there anymore but that is where I was born.

The Peruvian track records, up till now, have been modest, because the Federation has not really focused on the track.

Men's Peruvian records include - 800 - 1:49.15 Cesar Barquero (2006)

1500 - 3:43.69 Mario Barzan in 2009, 3000 - 7:57.95 Barzan in 2008, 5000 - 13:54.66 Willy Canchanya last year in Santiago, Chile.

10,000 record this year by Luis Ostos was 28:03.42 at Stanford, which was a huge improvement from his best time last year - 28:43.10, which he had ran in Lima in the month of June, in less than ideal conditions. Marathon best time for men in Peru was from last year's Rotterdam, where Raul Pacheco - a Huancayo (3300m altitude) native, ran 2:11.01. Gomez thinks Pacheco has a potential of 2:08 or better in the marathon. Pacheco has a listed birthdate of (1993) in Peru, but that may be a mistake, because from a physical standpoint, he looks like someone in his mid 30s.

Rodolfo Gomez coaches both Canchaya and Pacheco as well as Ostos.

In the women, Ines Melchor (30 years old this year) is coached by two South Korean coaches - one for track (Mr Kim) and one for the marathon (Mr K.Sung). Melchor has very good track records of 15:30.63, which she recorded in Trujillo, Peru, back in 2013, and also 31:56.62 for 10,000 last year in Stanford. Her best marathon is a highly respectable 2:26.48, from Berlin in 2014.

Ostos missed the 10,000 qualifying time for Rio by very little, and will seek a waiver to participate, as a developing nation waiver.

Gomez is doing a great job with these athletes, and things can only get better with time, as Peru has great plans to become one of the BRICS.

Ghost in China,

www.omeida.com

Teach English, volunteer,

learn Chinese. Apply today.

Well this looks like a probe to me. I think it looks like a probe to anyone with common sense. If it was intentional or for medical reasons I don't know but the fact is that he was or he is using prohibited substances.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NLfbqqAEKwo

Interesting, Raul Pacheco usually eats maca root with oats. I think many people uses Peruvian Maca as a "natural" sexual supplement.

Also, he eats a type of guinea pig called "cuy", and rams, beans, etc.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2hb_F2YzWHk

Here, a video of altitude training camp in Huancayo, Perú.

Rodolfo Gomez, Adriana Fernandez and Kenyan Boaz Lorupe (20:10 in 10k/ 1:03 HM PBs) are the coaches.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wqk1rRj4Er8

The first major inroads into the World scene will be made by the women.

Easier to affect performance by doping in women's sports.

The runners in the Andes region of Huancayo, which is the training base for the groups trained by Rodolfo Gomez, follow a simple diet, rich in carbs with moderate protein in addition.

When the runners don't have time to cook, they often buy tameles, which are sold everywhere in Peru. This is boiled corn with meat or cheese and wrapped in a banana leaf. Tamales are also a common food for breakfast, often served with Papa a la huancaina - which are potatoes, served on a bed of lettuce, and sauce.

For lunch, the runners also like 'Papa a la huancaina which are Huancayo style potatoes - basically sliced boiled potatoes, served on a piece of lettuce and adorned with cheese, olives.

Other favorites for the runners include the following.

Tacu-tacu: Mixture of beans and rice, fried, and topped with breaded and pan-fried steak and an onion salsa.

Papa rellena (stuffed potato): mashed potatoes stuffed with ground (minced) meat, eggs, olives and various spices and then deep fried.

When Raul Pacheco runs the marathon, and runs well, he likes to have a classic Peruvian meal after the race. This is roasted chicken, with french fries, a side salad. He will top it off with a few beers and/or cokes.

When the runners are in transit in Lima, before flying out, they often hit a number of Chinese restaurants, which have become popular in Peru (and other South American countries). A simple meal of chicken fried rice, is often the favorite there. Carbs, carbs and more carbs. No worries there.

Peruvian food, overseas is often linked to fish, but in the highland areas of Peru, fish is rarely consumed. The main sources of protein come from a variety of bean dishes and different cheese toppings. For those who can afford it, chicken is the food of choice, with french fries as a side dish, in addition to the ubiquitous piece of lettuce or two, with a salad sauce.

Ghost in China,

www.omeida.com

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Thanks, Mr. Obvious!

Scientists have bred mice for only 39 generations to produce 3 times faster specimens than in the first generation. One human generation is usually set to 25 years. 1000 years in one place should be more than enough to breed some slightly faster runners than elsewhere. We're just talking about a few percent faster for a few individuals.