Jamaica's newest phenom Christopher Taylor rocked the "Champs" In Jamaica with 200/400 records

Star wrote:

For a long time they have had this great development system for high school runners.

...They don't have much organized development after that except for going to US universities.

...They have finally found a way to retain and develop their talent in their prime years.

This is a very solid post, Star.

You've given a number of good reasons why for many decades young sprinters have done well there - same as I've know for some time now. The top handful of schools - from Camperdown to Jamaica College, Calabar to Wolmers, Kingston College to St. Jago - are veritable sprint factories. They represent only a small fraction of the high schools that exist in Jamaica, and most of the others don't operate at the level those top schools do. As you say, it really is like a college with the island's talent concentrated at those schools via the island-wide recruiting they do.

Curiously though, the preeminent star from the island isn't actually a product of that system. Bolt, out of William Knibb, didn't attend those schools, and didn't attend college, but rather came under the care of the controversial German Dr. "Healing Hans" at age 16, and has remained under his care since that time. Certainly this relationship wouldn't have continued if it weren't bearing fruit. But for obvious reasons, there's great skepticism for, among several reasons, the secrecy behind the treatments rendered there.

I'm with famed runner Craig Virgin on the subject of just what it is that the German doctor is doing: "In Sight it Must Be Right." Virgin explains, "That’s the way I feel about supplements and medication. Complete transparency is probably the better route. I would have had no problem as a clean athlete doing that myself to prevent unfounded rumors from getting started.”

To your point about Jamaica having finally found a way to keep top sprinters home and training there, as you may know, in addition to the few colleges in Jamaica, there is a club system. Among them is MVP club. Maybe you're aware of the scrutiny MVP fell under last summer (covered by the Jamaica Observer and other outlets) when seven athletes fell under suspicion for the timing of their en masse withdrawal from the IAAF World Relays. FloTrack's article said it was actually nine who withdrew, writing that it "falls under the 'suspicious' category given the timing." The clear implication being avoidance of PED testing that would fall early in what was essentially still training season for professional athletes - when PED use occurs.

Among those to withdraw was 2015 100m world leader Elaine Thompson. Three UTech sprinters - part of a 4x100 relay that had the then world-leading time, also withdrew. Taken in combination with the known lax PED testing of the Jamaican anti-doping program, you can see the serious issue raised by your explanation for sudden improvement across the entire Jamaican T&F complex, because they have "found a way to retain and develop their talent in their prime years" in Jamaica.

Lastly, someone else had mentioned Jamaicans running for other countries - and I asked for a list, but particularly of those that have run for Olympic gold in the short sprints. Are you aware of specific names to support that point?

4x4phreek wrote:

Lastly, someone else had mentioned Jamaicans running for other countries - and I asked for a list, but particularly of those that have run for Olympic gold in the short sprints. Are you aware of specific names to support that point?

Donovan Bailey and Bruny Surin for Canada in the '90's

Sandra Richards, Linford Christie, Donovan Bailey, Colin Jackson, Inger Miller, Charmaine Crooks,

Yawn. Crap. Blah, blah. Jamaicans are some of THE most doped up runners on the planet. Their performances are as fake as the WWF.

4x4phreek wrote:

wtfunny wrote:

I provided an analogy of how reductively attributing such things to 'PED's is simply unsubstantiated nonsense.

What you actually did is completely evade any effort to answer in specific declarative statements why and how Jamaican sprinting suddenly exploded in 2004. I entered this discussion by providing five declarative statements about Jamaican T&F - things which are easily researched and confirmed. I then added a sixth point. It's not difficult. ...

You don't have to like the answer. But I provided a perfectly reasonable illustration of how this kind of shift is common enough.

Why does it happen? Probably for a multitude of different reasons. But the impact of cultural shifts on sports, as with arts, has been written about on these boards many times. There's little point in going to the bother of rephrasing all that again and again when all you want to do is stamp your feet and blabber PED, PED.

4x4phreek wrote:

What you actually did is completely evade any effort to answer in specific declarative statements why and how Jamaican sprinting suddenly exploded in 2004.. ...

wtfunny wrote:

Why does it happen? ...the impact of cultural shifts on sports, as with arts, has been written about on these boards many times...

"Cultural shifts." OK. Got it.

But Asafa Powell and Sherone Simpson weren't each banned for 18 months for "cultural shifts" - unless you are specifically referring to a PED culture. Nor were the other Jamaican T&F athletes who were sanctioned at the same time.

Yohan Blake wasn't suspended for 3 months in 2009 for "cultural shifts".

Shelly-Ann Fraser wasn't suspended for 6 months in 2010 for "cultural shifts".

Nor were Jamaican sprinters Marvin Anderson, Dominique Blake, Julian Dunkley, Allodin Fothergill, Patrick Garret, Sheryl Morgan, Steve Mullings, Donovan Powell, Lanceford Spence, Bobby Gay Wilkins, and Christopher Williams - or a number of Jamaican athletes in other events.

Veronica Campbell-Brown didn't avoid sanction due to a technicality related to the collection of her test for "cultural shifts".

Last, Ray Stewart isn't serving a lifetime World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) ban for "cultural shifts"

You don't have to like each one of these verifiable facts, but you can't keep your head buried in the sand as if none of this has occurred - especially with the very top Jamaican sprinters.

And you can't keep returning to the discussion armed only with insults - and with something as amorphous as "cultural shifts" to explain the verified sudden shift in Jamaican sprinting seen in 2004.

As this thread now approaches five pages long, you have plenty of space and opportunity to lay out facts that support that sudden rise to meteoric heights.

If you don't know or aren't certain, you're also free to say that.

If the facts I've provided are untrue, you have this space to show that.

But you can't ignore them, nor the likelihood of the conclusions they point to - in the absence of a clearly articulated case that establishes the methods for the sudden quantum leap we've witnessed.

The world of track and field is a copycat world - and it wants to know. As the intense beam of focus on the East German exploits never waned - time has peeled back layers to reveal what was really happening there. Chinese and Russian runners could not escape that beam either. It will be no different for Jamaican sprinting - probably more intense - particularly if the assault on the record book continues in the fashion it has.

So explain why the West Indies, a powerhouse in the world of cricket, suddenly became a team of essentially nobodies. They dominated the sport like the Kiwis have rugby .. and suddenly, are an also ran.

but, that said ....

Go ahead and list the top world sprinters who have NOT had similar infringements and penalties, while you're at it. Using your "logic", we can safely say the US' long time dominance of sprinting has rested on, and only, PEDs.

You may or may not be correct. But if you'd climb down off your high horse for a second, you'd realize you haven't, at all, "clearly articulated a case that establishes the methods for the sudden quantum lear we've witnessed" (are you actually that pompous off LRC?)

"insults" .. what on earth are you talking about?

TrackCoach wrote:

[quote]MortieMeek wrote:

[quote]Karma Police wrote:

[quote]malmo wrote:

Champs is an incredible experience, it is like Jamaica's Superbowl. It has gotten so big that it now last a whole week and is like national holiday. Try to imagine the U.S. having a true H.S. national championship that's held the same time and location each year; the kids take off from school and no other activities interfere with the meet; all of the top athletes and schools are there; there is also a team competition, it is covered live on national TV and the entie cointry knows who the winners are.

So is it safe for a single white guy to go.? (wifey would never go.) I wouldn't do anything risky down there. Heard about Trenchtown and all that, Mon, but talked to a Jamaican hotel worker when down in Flaw-duh and he said "Go." they'd love having ya.

.

Dejour Russell, who I think has the most upside of all these Calabar and Jamaica kids is actually American.

bad example, Windies are about to win the T20 World Cup :)

(1) This question is completely deflective - and in no way makes a clear, declarative and verifiable statement to explain the sudden Jamaican sprint surge dominance that far exceeds the results of sprinters for whom it's been established were dirty with PEDs.

(2) You've asked this same question on page three - and tunapuna even expanded this concept to other sports right after you. It's all the same tactic, and I've covered this on that page.

(3) I'll add to what I've said on page three. I'm a former sprinter, and current and life-long sprint fan: this is my domain. This is where my history is, my years of accumulated knowledge, and years of research, including on Jamaican sprinting. This entire thread is about Jamaican sprinting. If you want answers to questions about sports outside of this domain - then seek out threads where you will find those steeped in that domain, just as I am in sprinting, and I suspect you will find those answers.

But taking that line of pursuit in this thread is fruitless, since it won't enable you to make "a clear, declarative and verifiable statement to explain the sudden Jamaican sprint surge and dominance that far exceeds the results of sprinters that it's been established were dirty on PEDs."

Why? This isn't a part of my premise - and isn't something I'm arguing against. If anything, I'd use that info in support of my premise - as experts looking at Bolt in particular, have tended to do.

Knock yourself out, and go for it in your own new LRC thread. This thread already has a central topic - one that you are struggling to keep your focus on, and to make clear statements to support your position.

Well, there's no question whatsoever that I've clearly established the fact of the sudden surge. None whatsoever.

Then you're choosing to willfully ignore where the facts lead. I've provided among the strongest, established, publicly available evidence of widespread PED use among Jamaican sprinters - including several current stars. The earliest case is from 1995, but the occurrences pick up in 2001 - and the cluster establishes more strongly after the performance surge seen in 2004.

You are entitled to your own opinion - but the facts are what they are.

Also, as the discussion continues, I'll continue to add much more to what I've already stated. You're welcome to test and discredit those facts - as well as add facts to support why the sudden surge has occurred. But as yet, you've chosen not to do that.

Are you missing the irony here - or did I not just read that you effectively labeled me [b"]that pompous"[/p] and someone needing to climb "down off your high horse"?

Additionally, thus far from your cohorts I've heard: "childish", "foolish", "this trolling game has been played much better by fools much smarter than you". The tactic is clear - but completely unproductive. Again, hopefully, we've seen the last of that, as ad hominems will only shine a spotlight on the weakness of the positions of those who use them. Better to bring facts.

4x4phreek wrote:

Lastly, someone else had mentioned Jamaicans running for other countries - and I asked for a list, but particularly of those that have run for Olympic gold in the short sprints. Are you aware of specific names to support that point?

Highly Bekelaselassie wrote:

Donovan Bailey and Bruny Surin for Canada...

justafew wrote:

Sandra Richards, Linford Christie, Donovan Bailey, Colin Jackson, Inger Miller, Charmaine Crooks

Thanks Highly and justafew. I'll add three more to the list - Debbie Dunn and Jerome Young - both having run for the USA, and Ben Johnson also, running for Canada.

So the assertion that's been made is that there would not appear to be any sudden surge in Jamaica's historical sprinting record if Jamaican runners hadn't run for other countries. Let's look at the record:

Bruny Surin is actually Haitian-born (Cap-Haïtien, Haiti), not Jamaican.

Colin Jackson is British-born (Cardiff, Wales).

Inger Miller is American-born (Los Angeles, California).

Linford Christie is indeed Jamaican-born - but to claim him, you also have to claim his two-year ban for PED use. But even insisting on his inclusion how do you reconcile that he actually moved to Great Britain when he was just seven - thus fundamentally absorbing his track & field ethos from, and receiving his track development within, Great Britain. That's too much of a stretch if the point is to credit Jamaica for world-dominating sprinter development. Let's just disqualify him.

Debbie Dunn also is Jamaican-born - but ran in the U.S. from high school on, including for the U.S. in international competition. It's unclear how young she was when she came over to the U.S. But ignoring that, to claim her, you'd also have to claim her two-year ban for PED use Let's disqualify her.

Jerome Young is Jamaican-born as well, and like Dunn, ran in the U.S. from high school on, including for the U.S. in international competition. It's unclear how young he was when he came over to the U.S. But ignoring that, to claim him, you'd also have to claim his lifetime ban for PED use Let's disqualify him, too.

Ben Johnson, of course, is Jamaican-born - but sparing the details of his PED saga and subsequent lifetime ban, we'll disqualify him from the list for obvious reasons.

Charmaine Crooks also is Jamaican-born, and it's unclear at what age she moved to Canada. Ignoring that, Crooks' sprinting career produced no Olympic gold medals for Jamaica to also claim to its credit. So factoring her in doesn't drop any gold medals into that gap between McKenley/Rhoden (1952) and the surge beginning in 2004 with Veronica Campbell-Brown (where only Don Quarrie's 1976 200m Olympic gold stands).

Sanya Richards-Ross - Wow! Yes indeed, Jamaican born - and I think I'd be mad if I were Jamaican. What a beast! She came to the U.S. when she was 12, specifically to improve her track prospects. But for certain she got her track start in Jamaica, looking promising even then. Her only individual Olympic gold came in 2012. This is long after the Jamaican surge began in 2004 - and obviously doesn't fall into the five decades-long gap where only Don Quarrie's gold medal stands. Thus, there is no change to the central premise with Richards-Ross' inclusion.

Donovan Bailey is last on the list- and by background, shares some things in common with Ben Johnson. Like Ben Johnson, Bailey was born in Jamaica. Both left Jamaica at an early age (age 15 for Johnson, age 13 for Bailey) - long before coming to sprinting prominence. In Canada, they both experienced periods of rapid improvement in short order. Johnson's improvements are well-chronicled. What's interesting about Donovan Bailey's career is that he didn't begin serious track running until 1991 - at age 24. Moving from the business world, Bailey topped out at 10.36 for 100m for the next three years, before dropping his time to 10.03 within a three month period in 1994. Within another year he owned the Canadian record at 9.91, and one year later he was the Olympic champion and world record holder at 9.84.

As many may remember, Bailey himself was often scrutinized in regards to PED use - but never was publicly implicated. Nevertheless, fellow sprinter Ben Johnson was dubious of Bailey's feat: "Asked if he thought Bailey used performance-enhancing drugs, Johnson responded: 'I'm not saying he did or he didn't. I'm just saying people at that level aren't clean.' "

Bailey's only individual Olympic gold came in 1996. This is before the Jamaican surge began in 2004 - and joins with Don Quarrie's gold medal in the five decades-long gap from 1952 to 2004. We'll include this for Jamaica to claim to its credit.

So in total, can we say of Jamaicans who ran for other countries, that had they instead competed for Jamaica, there would have been no appearance - and fact - of a sudden Jamaican sprint surge beginning in 2004? Even with the inclusion of Bailey's one individual Olympic gold - two Olympic golds in 52 years still does not change the central premise that there was a sudden surge in 2004. Remember - 11 Jamaican Olympic gold medals in just 8 years.

What's more, to credit these other Jamaican runners who ran for other countries - well, it's a damning record. Over half of them - 4 out of 7 - were sanctioned for PED use - including two with the severest penalty - lifetime bans.

Oh really? :)

4x4phreek wrote:

"insults" .. what on earth are you talking about?

Are you missing the irony here -

uhhhmmmmm .. No. I think you are.

That was the second time you've suggested I insulted you. I ignored the first one. The second one I figure I may as well go ahead and make use of it. If you're going to insist I wear the banner of insulter, why not,eh?

or did I not just read that you effectively labeled me [b"]that pompous"[/p] and someone needing to climb "down off your high horse"?

You did.

@wtfunny wrote:

..."insults" .. what on earth are you talking about?

(1) @wtfunny wrote: "... reductively attributing such things to 'PED's is ...unsubstantiated nonsense."

(2) @wtfunny wrote: "...all you want to do is stamp your feet and blabber PED, PED."

(3) @wtfunny wrote: "...(are you actually that pompous off LRC?)"

@wtfunny wrote: That was the second time you've suggested I insulted you. I ignored the first one. The second one I figure I may as well go ahead and make use of it. If you're going to insist I wear the banner of insulter, why not,eh?

You doth protest too much, given what your posting record is in this thread.

You doth protest too much about "unsubstantiated nonsense" and "blabbering" about facts of PED use, given the overwhelming official record of PED use by Jamaican and Jamaican-born athletes that appears right here in this very thread:

Asafa Powell, Yohan Blake, Sherone Simpson, Shelly-Ann Fraser, Linford Christie, Debbie Dunn, Jerome Young and Ben Johnson - plus two Jamaicans who were coaching - Trevor Graham and Ray Stewart - who received lifetime bans for trafficking and administering of prohibited substances or performance-enhancing drugs.

Correct .. you accused me of hurling insults when I hadn't. And you respond yet again here with more nonsense.

"doth protest too much"?

So you're now suggesting I'm on PEDs?

Run along for now.

And back on the subject of the OP, great race, thanks for the post.

I don't pretend to believe that that the world class medal winning Jamaicans are clean.

As I don't have confidence that the world class medal winning Americans are clean. Or Africans.

I am just noting that they have finally developed club systems to develop and retain professional talent in Jamaica in a way that they didn't in the past.

And that they have had one of the best youth development programs in the world for many years.

Thanks Star. I appreciate your contributions to this thread. It's refreshing to read a more direct take on the state of international sprinting. It stands in stark contrast to approaches that serve no useful purpose in understanding what ails the sport, how the sport is harmed by it, and what must be done to get it on the track it should be.

As you've seen in this thread, we both agree that there's indeed a major issue for international agencies to clean up - not only with the the sprinters and coaches, but the bodies that are supposed to be overseeing them. I plainly stated earlier in this thread that:

It's an international problem. All of it needs to be fully acknowledged, fully investigated and immediately adjudicated.

In case it was missed, here's a a broader view of my thinking about this issue (towards the bottom of the page) :