ATTN: Everyone who disagrees with me: Arguements against training in racing flats -- help please

You certainly are not a "recreational jogger".

If you're speaking to a shoe manufacturer, trackhead, see if you can't grab any proprietary information you can while you're there.

That way, you'll be able to create some cheap and highly profitable knock-offs of your own as soon as you get back to your dorm room.

When the manufacturer complains that you're violating trademark and copyright laws, say "Who am I hurting?"

Just as you do when someone mentions your DVD pirating skills.

Trackhead:

Do you feel that the height of the heel is the main issue or is it the heel/toe drop?

The reason I ask is that many have focused on the drop and it makes sense to me (as a mechanical engineer) that the height of the heel alone would have a huge impact on biomechanics...regardless of the drop.

I did a little experiment at home testing the natural reaction of my feet in and out of shoes. Immediately I noticed that upon heel strike, the shoe caused a large abount of torque in my foot. Unshod I had.....well...ZERO torque. I found it very interesting. In fact, I soon realized that heels are ROUND....shoe heels are not.

Also I noticed that my Brooks ST's have a similar heel drop to my Asics 2090's, though it has a much lower heel. Running in them seemed to be much less restrictive. H Streets may be better...but I don't own any.

Input will be apprecitated. - Barry

The problem with your logic there is that you're assuming that I do what I do for personal profit -- not tru in either case. Just to share the knowledge and enjoy track. If I was seriously interested in cashing in on track videos, I'd be somewhat more aggressive about persuing new work -- but I'm not, unfortunately I still have a few left to fill.

I wish Eurosport came to the US -- then I'd have nothing to offer.

Good question.

Both are a problem, but I'd probably say that drop is first, with thickness a close second. Drop is the bigger problem because the tilt and therefore shortening of calf/soleus/Achilles lengths and greater force put on the knees. That's why shoes with less drop, even if thicker (like the NB 856s) tend to feel bettter to those with sensitive knees.

The thickness is a problem because of the weakness encurred by feet, lack of perception, and height of the ground and consequent instability and need for correction.

The reason I ask is that many have focused on the drop and it makes sense to me (as a mechanical engineer) that the height of the heel alone would have a huge impact on biomechanics...regardless of the drop.

It's got to be both, otherwise, why have a flat with a 12mm drop, and why would runners initially experience similar issues with calf soreness in these more built up flats as they do in "real flats" ? I know for example of a runner who had sore calves from using the NB330. The reduced heel cushion produces the sort of feedback that tells you to absorb the shock of impact on the balls of your feet and not the heels. The same sort of thing that will cause you to run very high on your toes if on concrete -- it's not that efficient to run really high on your toes, but you don't want your heel to even touch the concrete (whereas on grass your heel can touch lightly, and you won't run quite as high)

But the lowered heel also plays a role by increasing the range of motion of your calves, which leads the stretch reflex to kick in before the heel contacts the ground, which reduces the portion of impact absorbed by the heel.

I did not like the feel of the Nike Free. I felt like the heel/toe ratio was much worse than what I train in, the Magic Racer. Any thoughts?

According to trackheads comments, the free is 20:12. The Magic racer is 20:10.

Also, would the Revolver and Wave Aero be somewhat compatible?

The Aero and revolver are very different -- almost opposites. The aero is a heavy, cushy flat for high arched runners. The revolver is a light, stable flat for low arched runners.

If you're looking for a substantially lighter shoe than what you're using, neither Asics nor Mizuno sell it in the US. As an Asics/Mizuno wearer, the two light flats I've tried and like are Brooks T3 and Nike Streak XC (look out, runs real small compared to the magic).

If you're looking for something more cushy than the magics, you could try the aero.

Just plain running long distance shortens muscles in the body trackhead. Try stretching more frequently and then you can stop worrying about it.

What does Wejo run in when he is marathon/10,000 training? What do the elite guys like that artist steepler who rent from him train in? I am really curious. Someone ask Wejo.

I'm not talking about natural compression -- I'm talking shortenings of soleus, calf, Achilles from high heels -- have a runner who trains in normal shoes do a decent run in H Streets -- lets see how they soleuses feel. High heels shorten lengths -- even skeptics of training all in flats, for the most part, agree with that.

trackhead, why the need for shoes? unless it's cold there's no reason. why don't you do 100 mpw barefoot? surely it's been done. if you tell me it's cause your feet will get cuts and blisters on the road then i'll say that's cause your lower leg/feet muscles are too weak and inflexible and you're not hitting the ground correctly. pavement isn't a natural surface but horses do ok on it. if you have another reason please share, cause there are huge efficiency gains in going from flats to barefoot. my point about the lack of lower leg strength/flexibility is the same reason many can't just run mileage in flats. some can. very few can run barefoot all the time. we're not horses, the human body sucks.

I tried the Wave Spacer yesterday, along with the Aero, Phantom and Precision. The Spacer was easily the most minimal of the four, and it was almost as cushioned as the Precision. I tested the Precision on one foot, the Spacer on the other, and so on until I did every combination. I decided on the Precision and the Spacer as my trainer and racer, in that order.

I've used the Magic Racer as a trainer for some time, but in the winter here there's just too many road miles so I'll see how it goes with the Precisions. I have run in Wave Riders in the past, but the Precisions feel much snugger and lighter than the older Wave Rider versions. I was very pleased with the Spacer, and very well could make it my everyday trainer. Of all the minimal shoes I've run in, which is almost everyone around, the Spacer has to my recollection the most cushioning along with the lowest heel. It ain't cheap, however.

If heel drop is the most important concern of you minimalists, have any of you ever tried running in the Converse All Star lows? I know they're pretty thick, but they're also flat as a pancake. Please don't read this post as ridiculing you -- I agree with the whole flats thing. I'm just curious.

A little bit about getting kicked out of places before/after running and just basic surface protection from glass and such (that I lack becauses I am not able to be unshod all the time). So I go fot the thinnest, most flexible, least "shoe" shoes available.

But it it's all grass or at the beach, you're right: no shoes.

Trackhead, Dont forget about me on the videos..thanks

barebonz: Horses that run on pavement are typically shod. Otherwise their toenail or whatever it's called wears down too quickly. Also, I don't run barefoot because I'm afraid of stepping on a rusty nail and ending my running career. Having something over the foot is just common sense when dangerous 'unnatural' things may be lying around. The point of wearing a minimal shoe just for puncture wound protection would be to increase lower leg strength/flexibility over time. Going from 0 to "high mileage" in flats would be retarded. Must build up slowly to allow for strength/flexibility gains without injuring yourself.

you just touched on what I'm getting setup to do after my long run -- I'm gonna leave right now (the sun is just rising) and when I get back I'll turn out a good number. Sunday's a good day for that.

ok fair enough, but do you race barefoot? surely you don't have to worry about glass on most road race courses and no one's gonna kick you out of a road race for being barefoot. i think you don't and it's because your lower legs can't handle it.

ok then what about dogs and cats?