This is how deep is doping in Kenya

Jon MoRange wrote:

Gotta love the dual threat of Jon O and JR for moran of the century. A tight race

Moran?

Yes, tight race indeed.

Mr Canova,

I'll ask you the same question Seb Coe was asked:

Are you asleep at the job or corrupt?

If the IAAF president can be asked this question, I'm sure you can too. I'd like you to answer since you've been working in Kenya for decades.

Here's another question:

Did you watch the ARD documentary?

Kenya is a country with no anti-doping agency, no testing at all. The rise of Kenyan runners coincides with the EPO age and italian coaches like you starting to work in the country. You've defended Claudio Berardelli several times here and it's evident to everyone what kind of coach he is.

Mr Canova, are you asleep at the job or corrupt?

You are kidding yourself wrote:

Without getting technical, you're an idiot if you think EPO & blood doping doesn't work on the best talents.

What if the best talent has a natural hct of 39?

Moron.

I cannot wait for Canova to go away. His argument that EPO does not work on Africans is terrible.

Not sure I follow your reasoning here. Are you trying to distinguish systemic doping from widespread doping?

Chebet using furosemide for losing weight? Was that her excuse or are you excusing her for using it? It is a diuretic only, that is you would only lose water weight very temporarily. If she was actually taking it for this reason she was misinformed.

Coach Cookie wrote:

Mr Canova,

I'll ask you the same question Seb Coe was asked:

Are you asleep at the job or corrupt?

If the IAAF president can be asked this question, I'm sure you can too. I'd like you to answer since you've been working in Kenya for decades.

Here's another question:

Did you watch the ARD documentary?

Kenya is a country with no anti-doping agency, no testing at all. The rise of Kenyan runners coincides with the EPO age and italian coaches like you starting to work in the country. You've defended Claudio Berardelli several times here and it's evident to everyone what kind of coach he is.

Mr Canova, are you asleep at the job or corrupt?

The ARD documentary confirms what coach Canova has been saying all along, that certain doctors and pharmacists have been supplying Kenyan athletes with EPO in exchange for a percentage of the athlete's winnings/earnings, and those athletes tend to be up-and-comers trying to get good enough to reach the upper echelons. Most of those athletes don't have coaches or agents yet, they latch on to training groups/camps and only get coached and signed when they reach a certain level or show unique talent. They may get training advice or tips from coaches now and then. Coach Canova has been saying this over and over again on this site, yet no one here has acknowledged there is a chance he may be correct.

If there is a conspiracy by AK to cover things up, coach Canova is most likely not involved; AK won't even give Mr. Canova the time of day.

Okay, I understand what you're saying, Renato. I completely do.

But to fully convince me, I would need you to coach me at high altitude for a few years with a big training group. If I succeed, you win.

Seriously though. Take me in. I'm 2:20 in the marathon. Make me a 2:10 runner.

Prove to me, please...... wrote:

Okay, I understand what you're saying, Renato. I completely do.

But to fully convince me, I would need you to coach me at high altitude for a few years with a big training group. If I succeed, you win.

Seriously though. Take me in. I'm 2:20 in the marathon. Make me a 2:10 runner.

You won't go from 2:20 to 2:10 unless you have the combination of factors it takes (physiology, mentality, form, toughness, durability, etc.) There has never been a coach who can get an athlete to a certain level if the athlete doesn't have the talent (combination of helping factors.) Maybe you have the talent, but if you don't you won't get there regardless of who is coaching you.

Renato-

Thanks for taking the time to post on these boards. I'm shocked that you are still willing to with how many occupy the letsrun boards. I know this is somewhat off topic from the drug discussion, but can you provide any insight into the current status of Bekele? How is his training going? Is he healthy? Event plans for Rio?

**left out the word idiots when I said how many.

Canova has sworn to the cleanliness of so many athletes ("100%!") that I can't imagine he has any time left in the day to do anything but monitor all these guys.

The fact of the matter is, and research shows, that the prevalence of doping INCREASES as you near the podium- the clean athletes get left behind in the heats for the most part. And right now that podium has a lot of Kenyans on it.

Pharmacy's and such ped's only approx past 5 years

Before that was and is coach/agents where from

Ard get no docu there

I don't see how you can interpret it more than one way, when you see "huge success" in it's original context.Just the same, I followed up with clarification which also needs a response.

fred wrote:

rekrunner wrote:

While that was indeed my exact question, nevertheless that was not my expectation, as can be verified by understanding the context I provided when I asked the question, and then my subsequent clarification

The context of your question could be interpreted in many ways and consequently only the exact question needs a response.

HCT is not performance.

You are kidding yourself wrote:

Without getting technical, you're an idiot if you think EPO & blood doping doesn't work on the best talents.

What if the best talent has a natural hct of 39?

Moron.

He's not screaming, but providing data, and drawing conclusions supported by the data. It's not a bad habit for his detractors to adopt. Whatever your world view, it has to accommodate real world data. If so many mediocre athletes are being busted for steroids (nandrolone), it's hardly evidence of a sophisticated doping regime, and surely not a strong case for EPO. There is still a possibility at the top, that they have better means to hide doping, so the data set is incomplete and non-respresentative, but without real data, this remains pure unsupported speculation.What would help support the case for EPO working at the top is providing data making a strong link with EPO and top performances. This was done for cycling (for example, charts showing some +/-8 of the top 10 of each year somehow tainted or linked to EPO or blood doping) in a way that it has not yet been done for running.What would also help characterize the scope of doping in Kenya, is to uncover who is supplying the dope, and when it started. Hopefully the WADA IC will shed more light on that, as Seppelt fell far short.ProPublica showed you could fall below the limit with one value, but that's not beating the ABP. And ProPublica did not measure performance.Most EPO studies are short term (6-12 weeks), on amateur subjects, measuring short performances (10 minutes), or worse, changes to VO2max, or time to exhaustion on an exercise bike.The case for EPO working at the top in track and on the road is one that is immature.

Coach Cookie wrote:

Kenya is a country with no anti-doping agency, no testing at all.

Strange then that Kenya's most high profile busts in recent times, Rita Jeptoo and Mathew Kisorio, were felled by out-of-competition tests in Kenya.

Tommy2Nuttz wrote:

Jon MoRange wrote:

Gotta love the dual threat of Jon O and JR for moran of the century. A tight race

Moran?

Yes, tight race indeed.

Your knew hear.

rekrunner wrote:

HCT is not performance.

You are kidding yourself wrote:

Without getting technical, you're an idiot if you think EPO & blood doping doesn't work on the best talents.

What if the best talent has a natural hct of 39?

Moron.

Is anemia "performance"?

The reason so many second-tier Kenyans have tested positive for Nandrolone ("Norandrosterone" is a Nadrolone metabolite) is that it's cheap, effective, and widely available.

The reason elite runners in other countries aren't tested for it more often is that it would now (in the 2010s) be stupid to take a drug with a detection window of over a year, in a country that has a functioning drug testing system. Obviously, prior to the swathe of nandrolone busts, Kenyan athletes or their coaches must have felt pretty confident that they were never going to be tested. With this knowledge, it's also no surprise that the positives for Nandrolone were all for second-tier athletes, as those who compete in the top international races would risk testing positive for nandrolone even in-competition.

It's hard to believe that all the second-tier Kenyans dope, while the top-tier Kenyans are clean - it appears much more likely that they simply use less easily detectable methods.

I don't think that Kenyans are any worse than athletes from other countries, but I do think Athletics Kenya is particularly corrupt, and the Kenyan Anti Doping Agency is particularly bad, which makes it easier for runners who have the advantage of doping to rise to the top.