Round II: New German ARD TV doping report coming out tomorrow - Kenya/Russia

AJT wrote:

wejo wrote:

I haven't watched the documentary but 1/3 of medallists having suspicious blood values does not surprise me at all. I'm surprised the number isn't higher.

If you asked me "are 1/3 of medallists doping?" I'd have likely said yes. However, only 1/3 of medallists had suspicious values, so actually the amount of medallists doping might be smaller than I thought. Is anyone else actually encouraged by this show?

I agree. A common theme is "everyone at the elite level is doping," but based off of this story, the majority of the medal winners do not have suspicious values. Maybe I need to watch the video instead of just reading the synopsis, but based off the article the headline could also be, "Undercover Doping Investigation Reveals Most Medal Winners are Clean."

You need to read it again. Large numbers of non-negative dope testing results. Large numbers of wild bio-passport scores. That is different than clean.

Have any of you ever bothered to read Wada's standards? Ever?

wejo wrote:

Or could you microdose and not even have a suspicious value?

If you recall the BBC documentary, the reporter did a course of EPO and yet still tested negative.

My guess is that with the help of a skilled medical team, it would be quite easy to manage dosages so as to avoid positive tests.

The extremely high values that appear in the German documentary are likely not an accurate gauge of the true extent of doping - it's just a measure of the degree to which some athletes are sloppy in their use of EPO.

It reminds of Victor Conte's quip that PED testing is really just "IQ testing" - getting caught means that you weren't doping properly. The really smart dopers manage their hematocrit levels so that they never arouse suspicions.

The details surrounding the death of Geoffrey Tarno made me think of the case of Kenenisa Bekele's fiancee, Alem Techale, who died suddenly in 2005 - even though she was a world-class athlete - and whose medical details were subsequently covered with a cloak of secrecy.

As many people have speculated, it seems highly likely that her death was caused by EPO. (And I wonder how Jos Hermens can sleep at night.)

Apparently there have been other sudden athlete deaths in Kenya - marathoner Barnabas Kipkoech, for example. If the athletes were administering the EPO themselves without any medical guidance (as seems to be the case with Tarno), I'm surprised it isn't even more common.

Really? The Spanish Inquisition!https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tym0MObFpTI

hey, I know... wrote:

agip wrote:

What has to happen is a testing requirement - either you get tested out of competition or you don't compete. Done. Put the testing requirement on the athlete.

Every country that belongs to the IAAF has to chip in. Hire the bloody Swiss and Japanese to do it.

Not sure how you handle the surprise element of out of competition testing, but there has to be a way - it's not brain surgery.

You send in the Spanish Inquisition.

bobgob wrote:

Quite ironic that people on here have accused Mo of being a doper and yet all this time, he was clean

Remember, it was independent scientists who examined Farah's bloods, along with Bolt's and other top athletes such as Jessica Ennis-Hill and found it was clean. No abnormalities what so ever.

There is a gap in your logic.

It doesn't follow that because his values didn't hit the threshold for what is deemed abnormal, that he didn't dope.

If you remember the BBC documentary that aired not too long ago, the reporter took EPO then had his values tested. He didn't hit the threshold of abnormal either.

bobgob wrote:

Yes, remarkable that a key fact was stated. Considering Farah has been dominating his events in recent years and has been cleaning up the WC and Olympic Gold medals for fun. When people think Drug cheating, the first thing people will look at is those who are successful. So of course they were going to state that in the article.

Quite ironic that people on here have accused Mo of being a doper and yet all this time, he was clean, while having to run against the Kenyans who are now implicated in massive doping scandal.

Remember, it was independent scientists who examined Farah's bloods, along with Bolt's and other top athletes such as Jessica Ennis-Hill and found it was clean. No abnormalities what so ever.

No. None. Remarkable I tell ya.

SMiLE wrote:

bobgob wrote:

Quite ironic that people on here have accused Mo of being a doper and yet all this time, he was clean

Remember, it was independent scientists who examined Farah's bloods, along with Bolt's and other top athletes such as Jessica Ennis-Hill and found it was clean. No abnormalities what so ever.

There is a gap in your logic.

It doesn't follow that because his values didn't hit the threshold for what is deemed abnormal, that he didn't dope.

If you remember the BBC documentary that aired not too long ago, the reporter took EPO then had his values tested. He didn't hit the threshold of abnormal either.

Using that logic, everyone can be accused of being a cheat.

What is clear from this report is that it's very unlikely that Farah is doping. As much as some would like to call him a cheat, there is nothing to even suggest he is. He's never failed a test, never been accused of doping, he's probably Britain's most tested athlete and now that his blood was re-tested along with hundreds of other endurance runners, his samples have come out as clean. On top of that, there is absolutely nothing remarkable about his PB in the 10k or 5k that would make you suspicious. They don't even make the all time top 10 list.

SMiLE wrote:

bobgob wrote:

Quite ironic that people on here have accused Mo of being a doper and yet all this time, he was clean

Remember, it was independent scientists who examined Farah's bloods, along with Bolt's and other top athletes such as Jessica Ennis-Hill and found it was clean. No abnormalities what so ever.

There is a gap in your logic.

It doesn't follow that because his values didn't hit the threshold for what is deemed abnormal, that he didn't dope.

If you remember the BBC documentary that aired not too long ago, the reporter took EPO then had his values tested. He didn't hit the threshold of abnormal either.

Ding! Ding! Ding! The rules clearly permit a wide range of doping and that's before we get to WADA's policy of extreme false-positive procedures.

The simple fact that some disciplines had no clean athletes on the podium is enough of a clue that the IAAF is okay with doping. Let's be clear, the IAAF is, most of the time, the only org with the authority to open a case.

WADA and NADOs like USADA have no authority to open cases.

Everyone can be accused of being a cheat.

No, that isn't clear at all.

There is quite a lot to suggest he might be doping.

Which means next to nothing.

You must be new here.

Lance was the USA's most tested athlete. Now Rupp is the USA's most tested athlete.

The former went down after an investigation by USADA. The latter's training group (of which Farah is a member) is currently under investigation by USADA.

No one's blood was retested.

As did Bolt's, which tells you how meaningful testing negative is in figuring out if someone has ever doped.

That's because he doesn't time trial 5ks or 10ks.

His 1500 in 2013 put him at #6 all time.

That's in an off event.

Clearly it IS hard reading for Wejo. Which is ironic since he and his brother pose as experts on doping in athletics so often.

Spot on, Bevin.

I don't doubt that many medalists are doping, but before we paint with a broad brush, does anyone know (or can guess at) what criteria the 2 Australian doping experts used to determine what made the blood values suspicious?

I'm not doubting their intentions, but perhaps there is actually no scientific consensus as to what might make a value indicative of doping. And if these guys are off by a standard deviation or something (I'm not a stats guy) then perhaps the number that should be viewed as suspicious is way off.

wejo wrote:

If you asked me "are 1/3 of medallists doping?" I'd have likely said yes. However, only 1/3 of medallists had suspicious values, so actually the amount of medallists doping might be smaller than I thought. Is anyone else actually encouraged by this show?

Or could you microdose and not even have a suspicious value?

Yes. I'm not the first to point out that the biological passport is an intelligence test as much as a doping test. The real surprise is how many athletes apparently dope so unprofessionally that they turn in "outlandish" blood values. Or perhaps, they simply have faith that the IAAF won't come after them either way.

As the scientists evaluating the data said, elite athletics today is like cycling 20 years ago; a doping free-for-all, with a corrupt governing body happy to close both eyes. There may be a few clean athletes, like Christophe Bassons, but I wouldn't look for them on the podium.

Rather than "going to be big", I predict this is going to go nowhere, like the previous documentaries, for lack of anything conclusive.

German Dude2 wrote:

Hajo Seppelt contributes to this report. He is the one who already brought to light what's going on in Nairobi's Hilton pharmacy.

This time, they used hidden cameras. This is going to be big.

ISMHF wrote:

Why would you change the title from the original, descriptive subject to this garbage? Come on LRC

^this

The title is terrible.

this.

Ahh I see, Smile is one of those adamant Mo is doping. Should have realised by his reply I wasn't dealing with a sensible person. But I'll refute your points

Yes it does.

Note, I didn't say 100%, I said unlikely. His Samples had been reviewed, and it showed no abnormalities. Years later, it was reviewed again and a number of endurance distance medal winners (800m and up) had abnormal blood test, with Kenya being the second largest. Mo Farah, once again, had a normal blood test level.

Would you care to suggest how else he could be clean? What are other forms of independent reviews could be conducted?

Such as....

Might as well do away with testing then. They mean nothing. Remember, in the context of this leak/investigation. 146 medals in total, including 55 Gold Medals were won by Athletes who had abnormal blood results. It wasn't picked up before, but two of the leading blood testing scientists have independently scientists verified these findings.

In regards to Mo, they reviewed his blood and it came out as clean.It means that his Gold and Silver from 2011 and Two Golds from 2012 came out as clean. That's 4 medals.

I'm sorry, I should have made myself clear. I don't mean someone on this forum from his mother's basement. What I meant was, journalists and fellow athletes.

For example, in the BBC investigation. Salazar was accused, Rupp was accused and yet Farah wasn't. The Journalist who did the investigation could not find one single person who would accuse Mo of any wrongdoing despite a 2 year investigation.

Kara Goucher (who I presume you believe) accused Rupp, but never accused Mo. In fact, the British Newspaper the Guardian stated that she refused to criticize Mo for backing Salazar and instead warned him to leave Salazar as more evidence would come forward.

Farah's relationship with Salazar is slightly different to most of the NOP athletes. Salazar only coaches Farah and deals with tactics, when it comes to his Nutrients, UK Athletics deals with that. Which is why Farah goes to Ethiopia/Kenya for months at a time for training and has been in France for several months training away from Salazar. Salazar writes up the training program and a British coach works with Mo to implement them.

Fine, the bloods were reviewed again by independent leading anti-doping scientists.

Ahh, I see. It's a conspiracy. A ploy by Mo to make himself look clean. He still doesn't have the UK 3000m record or the European 5000m record by the way.

- Doesn't run fast times = Not as great as former Kenyan and Ethiopian distant runners

- Does run fast times = He must be on drugs

He's effectively in a lose lose situation with people like you. The reality is, all 5 of Farah's Gold Medal's have been won in exactly the same fashion. They've been won in a sit and kick race. Every race has been slow and each time, Mo wins it with the final 2 laps when he is leading the pack.

Everyone on this forum screams at the TV at how stupid the Kenyans/Ethiopians are for not testing Mo, for not making the race fast or hard.

Considering how slow his winning times are for the gold medals and the fact that they are nowhere near the Olympic or WC record, it means his wins are probably clean.

Ha! Notice how you give zero context to that statement. Laughable stuff.

Farah ran sub 3:29 twice, both times at the same track, to demonstrate it wasn't a fluke.

The first time round, he didn't even win, came a distant second and was actually in 3rd place with 200m to go. He himself was shocked.

2 years later, he once again ran a similar time, but this time, he finished a distant 4th. 3 other pro 1500m runners beat him and time was bumped up to 9th in the all time list.

Nick Willis ran a sub 3:30 last month at the age of 32. Is he a cheat? Of course not, his fast time can be explained in the context of a fast race in which a WR was being attempted and he was dragged to run a fast time. Look at the 800m win at the 2012 Olympics, Rudhisa ran a fast race, broke the WR and dragged everyone to run a PB. Fastest 800m race in history. The bloke who finished last had a time that could have won him Gold at Athens and Beijing for the 800m.

That demonstrates consistency. Had Mo just done it as a one off, then of course it would have been suspicious, but he did it twice, same track, same opponents, in race which was geared for Kiprop to challenge for the WR.

You do realize that we have pacemakers for a reason? Come back when Farah runs a sub 3:29 again, outside of Monaco without pacemakers.

agree. This is huge.Way bigger than the Salazar case, yet this site went nuts for that.

Sigh... It's tough to be an optimistic fan. I'm still trying to get over Tyson Gay. However, this reminds me of Gladwell's article -

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2013/09/09/man-and-superman

. You'd figure a fair number of world champion endurance athletes would naturally have inflated values naturally - that basically contributes to the basic definition of "talent." I wonder how much of it contributes to the suspicious values. Like another poster said, I'll wait until I see the hard data until I pass further judgment.

"Mäntyranta carries a rare genetic mutation. His DNA has an anomaly that causes his bone marrow to overproduce red blood cells... Mäntyranta, by virtue of his unique physiology, had something like sixty-five per cent more red blood cells than the normal adult male."

Then again, the explanation could be a smokescreen for actual blood doping - the athlete mentioned above competed in the 60's and all sorts of crazy cheating was going on. Then there's the ridiculous amount of doping for the LA games. I'm starting to get so cynical, I'm even starting to believe the crazies who say that JB's marathon gold in 84 could be suspect. Sigh...