Lactate curves of elite athletes show that EPO/ Blood boosting is pointless.

Good science, bad science wrote:

fred wrote:

Ramzi went from 3:39 to 3:30 in 11 months on CERA.

That's slower than the best runner should have been running in 2008 isn't it?

With or without drugs.

Steve Cram was the first runner under 3.30 back in 1985. He wasn't using EPO or blood transfusions or any illegal substance.

Translation: Steve Cram never TESTED POSITIVE FOR "EPO or blood transfusions or any illegal substance."

(That we know of)

vee oh tooo maximum wrote:

"I don't think EPO helps as much as people think it does because people are not running long distances at the upper end of their V02max bell curve. This should suggest that EPO isn't necessary because people aren't using the amount of oxygen available to them anyway." (quote)

you do realize if your V02 max is higher and youre running at say 70% V02, you are now using 70% of a HIGHER number. its relative. Christ does anyone on this board actually THINK?

Canova is paid by his clients to pretend not to think.

oh come on wrote:

Good science, bad science wrote:

That's slower than the best runner should have been running in 2008 isn't it?

With or without drugs.

Steve Cram was the first runner under 3.30 back in 1985. He wasn't using EPO or blood transfusions or any illegal substance.

Translation: Steve Cram never TESTED POSITIVE FOR "EPO or blood transfusions or any illegal substance."

(That we know of)

EPO they didn't have at that time

Blood transfusion i don't think so

i would be less sure about LORD newbold re: blood transfusion

coach.. wrote:

oh come on wrote:

Translation: Steve Cram never TESTED POSITIVE FOR "EPO or blood transfusions or any illegal substance."

(That we know of)

EPO they didn't have at that time

Blood transfusion i don't think so

i would be less sure about LORD newbold re: blood transfusion

Cram's later career took place during the EPO era. Blood doping was widely used and undetectable during the Cram/Coe eras. HGH was undetectable during the Cram era, and is still very hard to detect today. Low/moderate dose testosterone use was undetectable during the Cram era. Clearance times for most steroids were very short in the 80s; international out-of-competition testing only started in 1989; there were no penalties for not being where the tester was for out of comp. testing during the Cram era.

oh come on wrote:

coach.. wrote:

EPO they didn't have at that time

Blood transfusion i don't think so

i would be less sure about LORD newbold re: blood transfusion

Cram's later career took place during the EPO era.

no it didnt

There are countless thousands of lactate tests that show a decrease in lactate production for a given pace, And many of them have been done on top level athletes. These test results clearly show an improvement in efficiency. With this improvement you get more pace for the same effort and more endurance because your glycogen stores are less depleted.

Good science, bad science wrote:

There are countless thousands of lactate tests that show a decrease in lactate production for a given pace, And many of them have been done on top level athletes. These test results clearly show an improvement in efficiency. With this improvement you get more pace for the same effort and more endurance because your glycogen stores are less depleted.

Good science, No sane person would debate the notion aerobic efficiency of elite athletes is one of the determinants of elite performance. No sane person would debate aerobic efficiency improvement would shift the LT curve to the right. Many people would also agree that this can be improved with training. Since you seem to have a bent around muscle tension/biomechanics it would be interesting to hear you describe the mechanisms responsible so we can learn.

Now let's think about this as one puzzle piece and tie this efficiency gain to racing and performance. Better aerobic efficiency means lower lactate at a given pace. In a race that means an athlete is going to run faster (my assumption here is the fastest time is the objective versus running less than 'all out' for the distance).

Now let's think about one more puzzle piece which is the additional performance gains from added oxygen carrying capacity (via EPO, altitude or other adaptation). Increase red cells and you have more oxygen delivery at a given speed. This will also shift the LT curve to the right. In a race, this means an athlete will race faster (same assumption that the goal is fastest time).

These two pieces should both impact performance, perhaps the benefit is not additive but again tons of evidence says more red cells and better efficiency impact performance.

Good science, bad science wrote:

Why do they dope. Because they have your mindset. You would have done the same in their positon confronted by the type of people who are around them.

This is exactly the case. People don't use drugs because they are helpful, but simply because they think that they do.

The drug users and the drug accusers have the same mentality, and flip flop back and forth from one to the other.

zohan wrote:

So EPO should be legal because it doesn't work?

The peds rules are a front for manipulation and corruption, and therefore should be removed from athletics, as well as the rest of society.

J.R. wrote:

People don't use drugs because they are helpful, but simply because they think that they do.

It's not whether they are "helpful" but rather if they work.

They do.

Take an Advil the next time you have a sore leg.

I'm of the opinion that low level steriods like winstrol and its couisins are used far more than epo/blood boosting. Why? It's cheaper. It allows you to recover faster, wIth no muscle gaIn, thus do more training so it's morally not as questionable because you still have to do the training.

Alan

J.R. wrote:

People don't use drugs because they are helpful, but simply because they think that they do.

Gary Oldman wrote:

It's not whether they are "helpful" but rather if they work.

They do.

Take an Advil the next time you have a sore leg.

You're simply proving my point.

J.R. wrote:

J.R. wrote:

People don't use drugs because they are helpful, but simply because they think that they do.

Gary Oldman wrote:

It's not whether they are "helpful" but rather if they work.

They do.

Take an Advil the next time you have a sore leg.

You're simply proving my point.

Does adrenalin "work"?

If you inject adrenalin does it 'work"?

Gary Oldman wrote:

Does adrenalin "work"?

If you inject adrenalin does it 'work"?

Blah blah blah proving my point.

Gary Oldman wrote:

J.R. wrote:

You're simply proving my point.

Does adrenalin "work"?

If you inject adrenalin does it 'work"?

Oh yes, Adrenalin works all right. We all know that. But why in the heck would you be so messed up in the head to inject it before training or racing instead of relying on your natural production?

And you will get more benefit from using your natural production, because you can control it much more.

oh come on wrote:

Good science, bad science wrote:

That's slower than the best runner should have been running in 2008 isn't it?

With or without drugs.

Steve Cram was the first runner under 3.30 back in 1985. He wasn't using EPO or blood transfusions or any illegal substance.

Translation: Steve Cram never TESTED POSITIVE FOR "EPO or blood transfusions or any illegal substance."

(That we know of)

No. He didn't dope. I have even adressed this subject with him a few years ago.

Good science, bad science wrote:

Gary Oldman wrote:

Does adrenalin "work"?

If you inject adrenalin does it 'work"?

Oh yes, Adrenalin works all right. We all know that. But why in the heck would you be so messed up in the head to inject it before training or racing instead of relying on your natural production?

And you will get more benefit from using your natural production, because you can control it much more.

Because the natural production of various "drugs" varies from person to person. People dope to put themselves in to that high normal zone if they are deficient.

J.R. wrote:

Gary Oldman wrote:

Does adrenalin "work"?

If you inject adrenalin does it 'work"?

Blah blah blah

I think your brain turns all data into this.

Your final point about increaseing red blood cells is the very one I am adressing that is a false logic. You have all the oxygen carrying capacity you need if you are heathy and in reasonable fitness. Within that capacity, you can keep increasing your neural conditioning more and more, shifting that lactate curve further and further to the right. This mean that the faster you race, the more economical you are, and thus, the less total energy you use. The concept of increasing oxygen delivery implies the oppostite, that increasing total energy consumtion will give you more benefit. Both scenarios are not applicable. One is natural and real science the other is bad science and a construct of the drug obsessive mentality.