Grant Fisher- 14:43 at Portage

Carl didn't list any of the courses or coaches to back up his claim on the West side of the state, so it's a moot point. Carry on.

fall guy wrote:

Carl was critical of WEST MICHIGAN. Every course that you mentioned is from the East side of Michigan.

Your error in thinking is that since Scott measures road races, he is somehow an expert on the management of the MHSAA State Finals. While Scott would do a tremendous job measuring MIS, his responsibilities stop at announcing. Every October, before the finish line is painted, the courses is measured twice.

Amazing thing is he only runs minus eleven miles a week. Think Ritz did like 90 or 100 mile weeks. Amazing. Alot of the footlocker winners when interviewed advise they only ran 40 or 50 mile weeks to win footlocker. Amazing.

There's a good interview with Grant Fisher at Portage on RunMichigan.com, here...

http://www.runmichigan.com/view.php?id=24398

We always loved the State Rankings generated by the Grand Rapids Coaches. It allowed us to come to MIS as an underdog even when we should have been the favorite. Our goal was always to stay away from some of the fake courses that provide a false sense of reality.

MIS is lightning fast and any athlete that does not run their season best on that course is coached poorly.

Idkafa wrote:

Your error in thinking is that since Scott measures road races, he is somehow an expert on the management of the MHSAA State Finals. While Scott would do a tremendous job measuring MIS, his responsibilities stop at announcing. Every October, before the finish line is painted, the courses is measured twice.

Right you are about my role w/the Lower Peninsula Finals & course certification duties. They are quite separate. I've nothing to do w/layout & measurement of the MIS course. Frankly, if asked not sure which tool I'd use to measure it. Measuring wheels skip & it's tough to follow the shortest route available plus they need calibrating (which nobody that uses them does). Maybe try mounting my counter on a mtn bike. Too bad I can't take my road bike over it since I have my computer dialed in near perfectly. I'm always amused to see coaches @ MIS w/their wheels, taking measurements. Too hard to just pick a spot out to offer advice/encouragement? Mile splits are given, isn't that enough 'distance' info?

No, Milford Alumn. you arrive as underdogs since your coach hides results and barely races. He is a great coach!

I agree with the great coach part but he never hid us for anyone that paid attention. The problem is that we didn't need to run on inflated courses to pretend that we were something that we were not.

Froshie wrote:

Anybody notice 9th place in the Div 1 race?

9. Cole Johnson / Rockford / grade 9 / 15:41

Damn. We may be talking about him in a couple years.

Different coaches, but that's where Ritz and Jason Hartmann went to high school actually.

MI Guy wrote:

No, Milford Alumn. you arrive as underdogs since your coach hides results and barely races. He is a great coach!

I am anxious to hear how someone goes about "hiding results"? You can find any meet that is run on this new fangled thing called the internet.

1 mile is 1609m. 1000/1609=.6215, so 1k=.6215 miles. .6215*5=3.1075. 5000m is equal to 3.1075 miles

Thanks for recalling those. The FL Midwest performances those two years were truly remarkable.

newname wrote:

frothy wrote:

Agreed. I saw that Kenosha race. Ritz blew away from Tegenkamp and Sage. Sage had run 1300 miles over the summer and he was devastated after that race.

And THAT was the 14:55 race!!!

bclover wrote:

1 mile is 1609m. 1000/1609=.6215, so 1k=.6215 miles. .6215*5=3.1075. 5000m is equal to 3.1075 miles

1 mile is 1609.344 meters

Always fun to hear stories of Ritz in high school. He was definitely my inspiration as a HS runner. Best HS XC runner ever, IMO.

It's a shame that he never could quite translate that into stellar professional and, to a lesser extent, college career(s). 12:56 and 2:07 (marathon) speak for themselves, but still, I thought growing up that he would be where Rupp Is now by the time he was Rupp's age. He is just such a more interesting person, but ultimately Rupp is by a significant margin the greater pro rubber. Ritz and Webb were my idols a decade ago when I was running XC in HS. They were just so much fun to follow. Rupp doesn't inspire me in the same way.

Idkafa wrote:

Your error in thinking is that since Scott measures road races, he is somehow an expert on the management of the MHSAA State Finals. While Scott would do a tremendous job measuring MIS, his responsibilities stop at announcing. Every October, before the finish line is painted, the courses is measured twice.

I didn't think he did, that is why I asked him. I thought that since he was around "all day" for all the races that he might know if they wheel the course.

Like I said, no way to certify a XC course, but the ones I ran were always wheeled. I am glad that they are wheeling them and I guess that is just how fast you would run in a track 5k or on a fast road course. The times that kids have run there don't correlate with their track times the way that track times did back in the 70s and 80s and 90s.

Used to be that if you broke 16:00 at State Meet on the golf course in Flint or any of the many places they held it, you would be top 5 or 10 in the state.

I know the races have been combined so there should be more sub-16s per race, but I have seen many kids who have not run under 4:30 for 1600 or under 9:50 break 16:00 on that course. My thought is that it should be tough to get very far below 16:00 on the road or track if you run those times.

Maybe my indicator times are way off?

GoldenMiles wrote:

ultimately Rupp is by a significant margin the greater pro rubber.

to quote Days of Thunder: rubbin's racin'

crete wrote:

GoldenMiles wrote:

ultimately Rupp is by a significant margin the greater pro rubber.

to quote Days of Thunder: rubbin's racin'

Haha, damn Auto Correct. I haven't seen Days of Thunder in...two decades? A classic from the days of yore.

Having the meet at the same course every year is going to result in faster times too, especially in perfect weather. Most kids get to run on the course more than once, so they know what to expect, how to gain time, etc. Plus the course is just fast in every way. There aren't any sharp turns, no real steep hills, and nearly half the race is on the infield of the racetrack, so you're either running in a straight line or around an incredibly gradual curve to the finish. Compare this to a golf course where you've got 90-180 degree turns around trees, constant rolling hills, etc. That can be 20+ seconds right there. So that state champ that goes 15:35 on a challenging course is now around 15:15. Those guys that were at 16:00 are now 15:40.

You can be amused all you want Mr. Hubbard, but we've used our wheel many times and backed it up on the track for verification of it's accuracy. The argument will then be how do you know the track is accurate?...and on and on and on. Well, how do we know anything is accurate?The bottom line is a wheel is close, very close if measured from point to point. If a course measures to within a few feet, then you're in the ball park of a stride or two. MIS is accurate and feel free to measure it yourself, or anyone for that fact. You're a great announcer, simply one of the best, but you don't know everything about measuring cross country courses and the reality of obtaining accurate results. I measured a course yesterday for a coach and was within 2 feet of their finish line...that's accurate enough for a cross country race as it's not even half a second. And that 2 feet is if the runner goes from point to point as the course was laid out. As for Milford and the coach hiding this and that, what a load of crap. I ran a course with 5 teammates together and we all finished in 15:31. We knew it wasn't accurate and the results didn't count towards our pr's. Any runner who was our competition, if having read the results, would immediately know that the course was BS by simply looking at our other times. You're not wining a mind game with bullshit courses as most runners and coaches actually know throughout the years what courses are real and what aren't.Irrelevant, you're not winning anything by putting down a fast time thinking that it will have an effect on your "real" opponents. Trust me, they know the times are bullshit unless you are running them all season on courses known to be accurate. The Milford coach may have been trying to be smart, but he wasn't fooling anyone allegedly attempting to hide results and go in as an under dog. We ran against them in high school and laughed at their times. Honestly, it's childish as it's best.