"Quality" work (VO2Max) not working so well

well, agree to disagree then

Well, 4:20 for 1600 is 27:04 for 10K (slower than Rupp's 10K pace)4:16 is 26:40 for 10K (slightly faster than Rupp's 10K pace)4:01 is 7:32 for 3K (Rupp's 3K pace)So Rupp's post workout session would be better described as:- 4x1600 at 10K pace- long rest- 1x1600 as fast as you can, to see what you got leftEven this small change would be a better workout for the HS-junior girl, and the last rep gives important feedback.

agip wrote:

huh? from flotrack, the miles were

5 x mile (400m rest in-between)

4:21, 4:20, 4:20, 4:16, and 4:01

which average to 4:15.6, or 13:14/26:28 pace

So it is what it is - a little slower than 5k pace or a little faster than 10k pace.

not sure about the rest

This phrase always seems to me like an overused cop-out, particularly for the stubborn holding an untenable position.Your position then, the one that we must agree to disagree, is that:1) the high school girl should be able to do, on a regular basis:4x2000, 2 min rest @ 5k pace6x1000, 2 min rest @ 3k paceand2) El Guerrouj workouts can be equally applied to national caliber athletes and high school junior girls, as if these are all apples to apples comparisons.I think the vast majority can agree that a disagreement exists. But these are not questions of religion, with non-falsifiable claims. To show that these are "do-able" for El Guerrouj, and therefore should be generally "do-able", it would be sufficient to provide more real world examples, to discoun that El Guerrouj should not be considered an exception, but rather an example that can be generalised.Can anyone give examples of high school girls doing "El Guerrouj" workouts, scaled for them?To see how they are different, we could consider the pace differences involved. For elite/seasoned male athletes, the absolute differences between 3K/5K/10K paces is much more narrow than for a HS-junior girl 5:18 miler.For example, in the case of Rupp, we might estimate:1600m at 5K pace is 4:091600m at 10K pace is 4:18or a difference of 9 seconds (2.25 secs/lap)While for our 5:18 miler HS-junior girl:1600m at 5K pace is 6:001600m at 10K pace is 6:18or a difference of 18 seconds (4.5 secs/lap) -- twice the difference of RuppScaling Rupp's 5K pace to the equivalent pace for our high school girl might arguably be 6:09 reps (her 8K pace), rather than 6:00.Note also that our girl runs 4K cross-country races at 6:10-6:20 pace, when she is feeling good. If her endurance were comparable to a Rupp or an El Guerrouj, this should be more like 5:54 for 1600m pace, yet it's 16-26 seconds slower, per 1600m, for a 4K race. Here is another strong indication that her endurance cannot be compared to El Guerrouj.Rather than targeting theoretical or actual 5K pace, I think the best metric to determine this girl's appropriate "not faster than" pace is her ability to maintain the requested pace for the 5th rep. Find that pace first, then work on getting it faster.

fan of US distance running wrote:

well, agree to disagree then

Thanks rekrunner.

I suspect that this girl's "not faster than" pace for this workout is currently around 10K pace. Her endurance cannot even be compared to one of her teammates. The other girl handles long repeats at 5K better and sometimes beats her in longer races.

So, we have two girls with similar running experience and similar race times. One thrives one longer repeats at around 5K pace, the other gets worn down by them.

By the way one girls has 61 sec 400M speed, the other can't break 70 sec.

[quote]rekrunner wrote:

Note also that our girl runs 4K cross-country races at 6:10-6:20 pace, when she is feeling good. If her endurance were comparable to a Rupp or an El Guerrouj, this should be more like 5:54 for 1600m pace, yet it's 16-26 seconds slower, per 1600m, for a 4K race. Here is another strong indication that her endurance cannot be compared to El Guerrouj.

Rather than targeting theoretical or actual 5K pace, I think the best metric to determine this girl's appropriate "not faster than" pace is her ability to maintain the requested pace for the 5th rep. Find that pace first, then work on getting it faster.

Mandu wrote:

hs girl.. wrote:

Why would a coach have a hs girl do 5 x 1 mile? The problem there is the coach.

So our head coach likes mile repeats (He's a vigil guy), what is a good number and pace, rest, etc. or HS boys and girls?

I coach a couple girls with similar PRs to the one you described. This year we have been using a 4'/1' workout - 4' on (@ hard tempo effort we call it) and 1' off. The whole team does the workout around the perimeter of a field - when they get to 4' they head back to the starting line, however the top 2-3 girls are asked to reach a cone set at 1000m (they took about 4'05).

We started in the summer with this workout. 4'05 for 1k is about 90% of 18'30 pace, which is their goal. We did this a few times, and then did it again recently as 5x1k starting at 4'00 and working down to 3'45 and the rest intervals went 2',2',3',4'. The rest of the team still did 4'/1', although we put out a cones at 900m and 800m for other groups.

We noted our observations and the results and have used them to individualize our subsequent workouts.

We don't do mile repeats at 5k pace because it's just too long to stay focused. Even our top runners would be 6-6'30 repeats. My thinking is that the mile repeat workout originated with runners who could do mile repeats at 5'00 or faster, so they are doing 5' repeats at 5k pace.

Mandu wrote:

Lot's of good stuff here, thanks for all the responses.

Fe_Man and jtuppered- Our understanding is Ferritin is in the 30's and told diet is good. Agree, that should be left for Dr.

Straw - Not familiar with Van Aeken, will check it out.

Hank Moody - Mile repeats, 5 at 5K pace with 2:30 rest.

Coach C and asdfasd - I am not the coach (part time assistant) but I am here to help out the coach and will discuss with him. I like the Tempo approach.

RE Mile repeats---(1) 5 is too many. cut back to 3. (2)rest is too short to start. Begin with equal rest and over time cut rest. (3) if mile pace over 5k is longer than 5-6 minutes, then limit the repetition to a distance that lasts about 4-5 minutes. So maybe start her with 3 x 1000 with 1:1 wk to rest ration at 5k pace and see how she responds. Increase or decrease the work load based on how she responds.

It should be obvious why she is getting tired or sick. Continuous insanely hard workouts without the framework to support them.

How are the other athletes handling 5x1 at 5k pace? How are the other workouts progressing? You shouldnt be hanging on for dear life every workout. If your workouts aren't progressing over the course of a season and your just hanging on or workout distances or times not progressing or even worse REGRESSING then that tells you the problem

In the long term I would promote more mileage in the off season. That will lay the groundwork to handle heavier inseason training. In the short term no workouts for a week. Slow and easy until athlete is recharged. Hell take some days off. Once ready just slow the workouts down. 5x1mi at a slower pace is fine. whatever the other workouts are slow them to a manageable pace. Speed up when able.

Alan

good post - I'll take your interpretation.

rekrunner wrote:

Well, 4:20 for 1600 is 27:04 for 10K (slower than Rupp's 10K pace)

4:16 is 26:40 for 10K (slightly faster than Rupp's 10K pace)

4:01 is 7:32 for 3K (Rupp's 3K pace)

So Rupp's post workout session would be better described as:

- 4x1600 at 10K pace

- long rest

- 1x1600 as fast as you can, to see what you got left

Even this small change would be a better workout for the HS-junior girl, and the last rep gives important feedback.

agip wrote:

huh? from flotrack, the miles were

5 x mile (400m rest in-between)

4:21, 4:20, 4:20, 4:16, and 4:01

which average to 4:15.6, or 13:14/26:28 pace

So it is what it is - a little slower than 5k pace or a little faster than 10k pace.

not sure about the rest

I have had only my strongest boy HS runners (high mileage, experienced) run 5 x mile @ 5K effort, but with a couple of differences:

start first one off conservatively and try to take a couple of secs off each one, and 5+ minutes jog recovery in btw miles.

Girl's equivalent is indeed 5x1K with similar 4+ minute recovery jog in between, again this workout would be only for most conditioned and experienced runners.

This workout is done once a season on a week we don't have a race.

So you think that a HS girl should do the same workouts as a World Record holding man?

Are you really that stupid?

Galen Rupp is also a horrible example, it is been said by Alberto and Magness that he has a superhuman ability to recover between tests and can sometimes bust out a better interval workout than Mo even.

Galen and Mo are different animals. Mo really wants to be the best in the World. Galen is happy being the best in the US.