German Fernandez... 13:47....

actually buff man wrote:

waitwhat wrote:

Umm, ever heard of Ryan Vail?

Smith does not overtrain those guys. It's fairly low intensity, especially compared to other programs' interval schedules. They run lots of miles. Does Colorado NOT run a lot of miles? And don't try to say that CU guys are always healthy. I'm not ripping CU, have a lot of respect for that program, just using as an example.

And to say Smith wasn't familiar with German's background or make adjustments based on it is just plain stupid.

I don't know what you mean as a lot but CU's runners run 70-90 mpw and workouts are very controlled. Just putting it out there. They go through injuries like everyone else.

Having a hard time seeing what you are objecting to. Nothing in your post contradicts anything in the post of 'waitwhat'.

True. A 4:21 1600 for him was slower than 3200 race pace. A 1:58 800 was very close to 1600 race pace. The 8:54 is a strong effort, yes.

Larry Dickman wrote:

oldold runner wrote:

Yup, Remember he gets in racing shape fast. If stays healthy he'll be close to 13:10 by the end of the year, but he has to stay healthy.

13:10? This is based on him never running close to 13:10 before.

The word in the sentence is "close."

Remember in 2012 GF had trouble getting the USA Olympic qualifying time in June. He just made it. He then went to Jerry's group and ran 3:34.6 1500m that September after two months of solid training. I believe the same thing can happen this year.

oldold runner wrote:

Larry Dickman wrote:

13:10? This is based on him never running close to 13:10 before.

The word in the sentence is "close."

Remember in 2012 GF had trouble getting the USA Olympic qualifying time in June. He just made it. He then went to Jerry's group and ran 3:34.6 1500m that September after two months of solid training. I believe the same thing can happen this year.

I don't know if he will or won't. But to imply that he could not get close to 13:10 this year based on his PR from when he was 18 years old is just plain ignorance.

Smith is extremely intelligent about how he sets up a workout plan, everything thought out very well, from the warmup routine to tempos, speedwork, Vo2 max, and longer progressions and long runs. It is not high mileage from what I've seen, but not super low either, and he clearly was doing a lot specific with German. The fact is that he became anemic, he was already injury prone in hs, and he was rarely healthy after freshman year (even during freshman year he had a few injuries). 13:47 this week is only 22 seconds off his pr, though he probably would have run below 13:20 after that 3:34. This is a guy who rounds into shape very very fast when healthy, as at the end of his senior year. If he stays healthy all summer, do not be surprised to see him running low 13s or low 3:30s. The health has just not been there for most of the last 10 years or so, maybe 2 healthy years and small portions of others.

Blah, blah, blah........

The more we pick at him, it's guaranteed the worse he'll do! None of us know what's gone down this last couple of years or why things have so slowly been improving? He seems to train for 6-8 weeks, gets into great shape and then, - frick'in injures himself again! - "The Glass Man" jinx - who knows? The fact that he hasn't thrown in the towel is amazing, he's not giving up on the dream and either have his coaches and friends. If things would have progressed naturally, he should be right there with Derrick and Jäger by now, but sometimes "$hit happens" and life gets in the way!

German is the ultimate "running magnet" and will draw all attention to himself if he starts to do well! Sometimes you get the feeling he hates all that attention and has intensionally kept out of the spotlight (?) Either way, this current chapter looks promising, I just hope the trail of BS doesn't plague him again.

This....

Smith is intelligent, yes.

However, he is impatient as a coach. I do like the guy and understand his situation. However, we did WEEKLY 10 mile tempos, and he let German roll 10 mile tempos next to all out at sub 50 minutes his FRESHMAN YEAR. His longest tempo in high school was 4 miles.

And I'm sorry, but Dave doesn't really have "thought out training".

Let me tell you OSU's training,

Meet all days except Friday. Meet twice Monday-Thursday.

Monday- Do whatever you want, just be there. Most guys did 70 minutes. Some 90, some 30. It was honestly whatever.

Evening, met for practice, double simply IF you wanted to.

Tuesday, 4 mile tempo. Start out at 21.40, knock off 20 seconds each week to 19.20-19.40. Warmed up as much as you want, cooldowned as much as you want.

Met in evening, double if you wanted too.

Wednesday, the high mileage guys would wing 90, but again, do as you please, there was ZERO constraints or individualizing.

Double as you pleased for evening practice or not run at all.

Thursday: Fartlek workout, 1 hard, 1 easy, 2 hard, 2 easy, 3 hard, 3 easy, times 3. This was all out. Same situation for warm up and cooldown.

Double as you pleased or not run at all.

Friday: it's whatever, most guys met for an easy hour.

Saturday: 10 mile tempo, by the 3rd one, it was a race. This is why OSU has no depth by end of season. Double as you pleased or cool down as long as you want.

Sunday, go as long as you want for long run, just be at practice.

We didn't do core much, and they still don't. They do A LITTLE lifting.

And we repeated this ALL 5 YEARS. It did NOT change. So scientific and indualizing.

I love my team and I would not trade it for anything, however, what happened with not investing in German and seeing his previous background, and I assure you, Dave just assumed a talent like that would be firing all 5 years and it was too anal to look at German's high school training to see what previous worked.

In German's defense, he did what we all did. If we were inspired add more. He honestly is a ridiculously motivated kid, therefore 40 to 90's for mileage jump instantly went without question when Dave assumed he'd pan out none the less.

I wish all my OSU brethren well, but serving as a coach and under another prominent D1 in the country, definitely has opened my eyes to running/training philosophy, or lack there-of with my previous team.

I hope no fellow OSU alums take offense to my post, but did feel obligated to defend my stance against non-OSU runners claiming my 1-1 experience was ignorant or wrong. I'm just observant, and intuitive, therefore, I learned quickly on my own.

Now I kind of feel bad about my post.

Anyways, German was overworked. A delicate, agile, and fluent runner like that should have never been overworked, especially the spontaneous jump. Especially right off the bat.

Also, after his Achilles issue, in 2008 NCAA xc meet, he took just 9 days off. So, his 3.56 right off the bat, had training behind it.

Godspeed, German.

And if anyone wants to know if German reads letsrun, he does not. He had to google "letsrun" to find it, when we were checking results for a meet.

However, the rest of the OSU crew, do.

And 4 mile tempos changed to this same order of workouts once Jamboree past:

1st week: 6x1mile. 4 minutes rest.

5x1200 if you're racing pre-nat's, 8x1200m if you're not. 3 minutes rest.

10x1000m. 3 minutes rest

2k, 1 mile, 1200m, 800m, 400m, 2k. Rest is 1 minute for every 1/4 mile of the repeat. So 2k, 5 minutes. And 400m, 1 minute.

And then 5x1k easy before regionals. 3.07, with a 100m jog/1mimute rest in-between.

And then 5x1k easy before NCAA's.

All 5 years, exact carbon copy of previous year.

Transfer advice is my previous name on here: "hey biw", btw

Thanks for sharing that info.

Well, it does sound like the flexibility was not right for some athletes, like German, but that basic workout structure in your first post brought me in four or five months to far above my best shape for my life at 43.

If anything, the above postings indicate a great deal of room for individualization at OSU, if the athletes actually would take days off / easy days if needed.

The problem is that highly competitive athletes will often choose to do more than they should, especially if "everyone else is doing it".

wow, welcome to hardcore training. you're lucky enough to have a choice regarding what you did. 5 years under john, and hammering it out with Olympians and fellow all americans, made me tougher and stronger. your 10 mile tempos early season are the meat and potatoes. this was also our routine. 50 minutes or faster was very, very commonplace in these 10 mile "tempos". I had teammates run as fast as 48.xx. this "tempo" switched to 5-6 x 1 mile on the old golf course as the season progressed. we gradually added 20x400m on grass later in the week as well. I know dave very, very well; and his program is spot on. it sounds to me that you were not a good fit. that's fine. the readers should remember that there are ALWAYS 2 sides to any story. your denegration and criticism is unwarranted...far and away. german's biggest obstacle is himself. plain and simple.

Your post betrays a complete lack of thought processes.

I really don't know the point of your post and it has a handful of contradictions.

First off, I improved well. Eventually, I learned from others on the team and took their little self-training tid bits and passed them off as my own. I did not and don't have a problem with this for my own well being in running.

I never said the training didn't work, however, the system was very faulty for German. That is an obvious. It has nothing to do with German's mentality.

However, you talk so highly of the training and it being spot on. If that were the case, we would no longer have to resort to obtaining foreigners that are the cream and crop of our scoring top 5. If the system fully works, why not just develop Americans. We get good talent there too! Understandably, recruiting foreigners, takes the edge off and makes one's job easier.

In Dave's defense, the environment of Stillwater makes developing American talent VERY hard. It's easy to get distracted. It really is. Though, that was never really a problem for German. The kid is all work ethic. He honestly was willing to do whatever he was told to improve. Unfortunately, OSU was not the place for him, like many universities with their other top runners.

Larry Dickman wrote:

oldold runner wrote:

Yup, Remember he gets in racing shape fast. If stays healthy he'll be close to 13:10 by the end of the year, but he has to stay healthy.

13:10? This is based on him never running close to 13:10 before.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't German run 13:25 and come in 5th at the US championships his freshman year? That was the year that Teg, Solinksy and Jager swept the 5000.

He certainly has sub 13:10 ability, and if he remains healthy and gets the base in he can run at that level. It may not be this season, but it should be coming as long as he can stay healthy and train with his group.

Jerry's biggest task for him will be to keep him undertrained and hungry for more without giving it to him except in the form of races. Keep him cross training and on the gimmicks (underwater treadmills/alter g) as much as he can stand it and give him 90% of the workouts that the top guys are doing until he can string together a year or two of good health. Even off of this German should be able to run under 13:10 and 3:34.

olde hogge wrote:

german's biggest obstacle is himself. plain and simple.

You're trying to blame German, for picking Dave Smith as a coach.